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The case of the rattly gearbox.........
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Author
Posted 2/15/2012 4:08 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

RE: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

updated my profile...

What will be the relation between the temperature and the ratlle? Mine only rattles when the gearbox becomes hot, and it indeed disappears when you slightly increase the RPM.
#200538 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 2/15/2012 4:13 AM
petermerle
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Mine is all the time
#200539 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 2/15/2012 7:22 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

petermerle - 2/14/2012 11:25 PM

dai - 2/14/2012 8:44 AM  and is only there at low rpm idle.  -Dai

 

DAi ,

I'm curious as how do you tell if its not there above low idle as engine noise will swamp any gearbox rattle sound.  Mine does it as well - it only started doing this after fitting a new Clutch and release bearing

Peter



The noise is loud and obvious and when I advance the throttle it abruptly stops. Because I have an old school diesel I have mechanical throttle advance and can set it above the threshold of the noise to warm up or at an extended period idling the motor.

I am running Redline D4-ATF in the box and there is no difference hot or cold. The noise is there below a certain RPM. Again if the clutch is disengaged the noise stops.

-Dai
#200569 - in reply to #200534
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Author
Posted 2/16/2012 12:56 AM
petermerle
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Ok, my noise is much quieter .
#200576 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 2/16/2012 6:34 AM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
5000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

dai - 2/15/2012 7:22 PM

I am running Redline D4-ATF in the box and there is no difference hot or cold. The noise is there below a certain RPM. Again if the clutch is disengaged the noise stops.

-Dai


Sure sounds like a throwout bearing or fork loose in its mount.
#200583 - in reply to #200569
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Author
Posted 2/16/2012 7:08 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

You could be right, Dutch but I installed a brand new OEM throwout bearing when I installed the new clutch and the modified input shaft bearing. Also if it was the Throwout bearing it should stop making noise when the bearing face touches the spring face of the clutch cover I would think. Mine does not stop the rattle until the clutch is fully disengaged. I can slowly push the pedal in and feel it hit resistance but it needs to fully disengage to stop the gearbox rattle. I really think in my case the mistake I made was to not address the other end of that little input shaft. I thought I had conquered the problem with the big bearing, not even considering the possible problem with the tiny needle cage on the other end.
I will address it all when I have a turbo motor ready to install. The transmission removal alone is a difficult and time consuming job on 460 SWB. My plan will be to pull the engine and tranny as a unit and then take the transmission back apart and fix it correctly. It is annoying more than anything. It functions beautifully and I have at least 70K on it since I installed it. The stock motor is tired but keeps on chugging along. All 88 hp's!
I do appreciate your thoughts about it.

-Dai
#200604 - in reply to #200576
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Author
Posted 7/2/2012 4:15 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

RE: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Already any idea / tips how to solve the gearbox rattle?
#205230 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 7/2/2012 3:58 PM
460332

Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
500
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

My rattle behave similar to Dai's, and I think too it comes from the input axle and needle cage/bearing.

1. Rattle is only when transmission is FULLY warm (Redline oil here too, vehicle is 100.000 miles).
2. Disengaging the clutch stops the rattle.
3. If you press the gear stick towards 1. gear - clutch engage (pedal out), the press on the input axle silence the rattle/needle bearing.
4. W123/617A almost always have automatic transmission, i.e. no rattle!

I've heard people change all clutch-realted parts with new ones - except for the internal needle beerings, and the rattle will still be there.
Sure yoy can have some rattle from throwout bearing/dry guide tube too!
#205255 - in reply to #200604
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Author
Posted 7/11/2012 8:25 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Is it easy to replace the internal needle beerings? Or is a complete gearbox re-build needed?
#205623 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 7/11/2012 5:03 PM
460332

Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
500
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Something like this..



(IMG_1829_86.JPG)



(IMG_1828_86.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_1829_86.JPG (114KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments IMG_1828_86.JPG (102KB - 3 downloads)
#205632 - in reply to #205623
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Author
Posted 7/11/2012 7:49 PM
Fernando BR



Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Mine does the same , its a 711 117 . 2 years of use and noise is the sama. Gearbox is perfect , each day better. I saw by the street that many MB trucks and sprinters make the same noise.
I dont remember if mine use to do it with 4sp gearbox. I am using 80SAE90 gear oil and its clear to me that when engine /tranny are hot noise increase as described.

With 711 117 i am using 4sp"s pressure plate , cluth disc , release bearing and release yoke , diferent from the used on getrag . That make me believe the noise come from the flywheel.

On the 290 GD that uses same gearbox i am using (461 368 ) the fly wheel ha double mass. I have read it before in the forum , do not remember where.



Edited by Fernando BR 7/11/2012 8:34 PM
#205633 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 7/12/2012 5:59 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

@460332, looks complicated:-) is it the needle bearing in the picture, middle below, that causes the rattle?
#205644 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 7/26/2012 3:46 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Is it wise to travel 3000km with a rattly gearox? I'm planning my holiday trip, but not sure if the gearbox will make it while it's rattling in neutral...
#206023 - in reply to #205644
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Author
Posted 8/3/2012 5:29 PM
Fernando BR



Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

dai - 2/16/2012 7:08 PM

You could be right, Dutch but I installed a brand new OEM throwout bearing when I installed the new clutch and the modified input shaft bearing. Also if it was the Throwout bearing it should stop making noise when the bearing face touches the spring face of the clutch cover I would think. Mine does not stop the rattle until the clutch is fully disengaged. I can slowly push the pedal in and feel it hit resistance but it needs to fully disengage to stop the gearbox rattle. I really think in my case the mistake I made was to not address the other end of that little input shaft. I thought I had conquered the problem with the big bearing, not even considering the possible problem with the tiny needle cage on the other end.
I will address it all when I have a turbo motor ready to install. The transmission removal alone is a difficult and time consuming job on 460 SWB. My plan will be to pull the engine and tranny as a unit and then take the transmission back apart and fix it correctly. It is annoying more than anything. It functions beautifully and I have at least 70K on it since I installed it. The stock motor is tired but keeps on chugging along. All 88 hp's!
I do appreciate your thoughts about it.

-Dai


Dai , when you swap i am candidate to buy the old 617. How to bring it to Brazil? Part by part....

take care
#206247 - in reply to #200604
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Author
Posted 8/3/2012 5:31 PM
Fernando BR



Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Werner Wild - 7/26/2012 3:46 AM

Is it wise to travel 3000km with a rattly gearox? I'm planning my holiday trip, but not sure if the gearbox will make it while it's rattling in neutral...


YES!!
#206248 - in reply to #206023
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Author
Posted 8/3/2012 5:32 PM
Fernando BR



Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
1000
Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Werner Wild - 7/26/2012 3:46 AM

Is it wise to travel 3000km with a rattly gearox? I'm planning my holiday trip, but not sure if the gearbox will make it while it's rattling in neutral...


YES!!
#206249 - in reply to #206023
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Author
Posted 9/9/2013 10:11 AM
Werner Wild
Member


Date registered: Dec 2011
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): w460, 300GD, manual 5 gearbox, short WB, '84
Posts: 17

Re: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

Already any update/ idea / tips how to solve the gearbox rattle?
#216982 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 9/10/2013 12:24 AM
syncro
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: May 2007
Location: Orinda, CA
Vehicle(s): '84 280GE LWB > 300GD, '75 240D
Posts: 477
300
RE: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

FWIW,

I recently installed a low mileage Getrag with the upgraded input bearing. I have about 500 miles on it so far
I'm hearing similar noise to what Dai describes. Loudest at low RPM and quite at 1.5k and above.

I suspect that it's a result of the input shaft being a bit fore or aft of where it had been originally
The shaft probably has some ideal position to match previous wear and when it leaves that position, it gets noisier.

#216992 - in reply to #152727
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Author
Posted 11/15/2020 7:57 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

I may have found the source for the rattle when the clutch is not depressed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWDksooVGMs&fbclid=IwAR39lS1Soo3Fl74...

watching additional videos I saw that some transmissions have a plastic cap on the pivot ball - and of course when that plastic is gone, the fork will rattle.
if no plastic cap is used, ball and fork will wear each other out
saw a video where the ball had worn through the metal of the fork
so, the additional space created between fork and ball makes the fork sit more loosely than when new and a rattle is possible.
No mention anywhere in the MB manuals

here is a video with better lighting to see the components involved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQd9ISMdNo
#242178 - in reply to #216992
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Posted 11/17/2020 9:56 AM
gbenzer
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 2007 G-500, 2017 Audi Q7
Posts: 418
300
RE: The case of the rattly gearbox.........

4x4abc - 11/15/2020 7:57 PM

I may have found the source for the rattle when the clutch is not depressed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWDksooVGMs&fbclid=IwAR39lS1Soo3Fl74...

watching additional videos I saw that some transmissions have a plastic cap on the pivot ball - and of course when that plastic is gone, the fork will rattle.
if no plastic cap is used, ball and fork will wear each other out
saw a video where the ball had worn through the metal of the fork
so, the additional space created between fork and ball makes the fork sit more loosely than when new and a rattle is possible.
No mention anywhere in the MB manuals

here is a video with better lighting to see the components involved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQd9ISMdNo


I couldn't help but think about this cartoon. I understand the frustration.



(Rattle.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Rattle.jpg (86KB - 0 downloads)
#242180 - in reply to #242178
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