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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| diesel fuel lubrication
So there was a post about this subject that was moved to the Diesel part of the forum. Why? There are a large number of G's with diesel powerplants in the world. Seems relevant to discuss this here. I do not have much time to look at the other forum areas even thought I am interested in 123's, 111's, and other models. I am a diesel head, but this is the component of the forum that I find interesting. If a post is made here concerning diesels in the G's why not leave it here and also have it live in the diesel heading? I wanted to respond but it dissappeared. 
-Dai |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| I'll second that motion.
Summary of post: Will the new ULSD wreck our diesel injection pumps due to the lower lubricity?
Summary of my thoughts: No way. The Bosch IP is lubricated with engine oil everywhere but the pumping cylinder. These cylinders are insanely hard and well machined. As long as there is no water in the fuel you are good to go. |
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T.Schuhe
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Olympia, Washington State, USA
Vehicle(s): 460 1985 LWB 300GD five speed
Posts: 711
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
Yes, that is me as well - Interested in diesel items, but little time to spend on the other forum tracks.
We had a diesel gathering here in Olympia a few weeks ago. Two turbo conversions (617a) 300GDs, and two naturally aspirated 300's. I burn soy oil and slowly move toward more diesel during fall and winter. As summer returns, I increase the amout of soy based bio diesel fuel.
Aberdeen on the coast is getting the world's largest biodiesel plant (near here) in the next year, which should increase its use and popularity in this area. Biodiesel is already being used by the city buses and there are dozens of old Mercedes sedans and wagons here that use bio. Lately many of the late model VW's are also sporting biodiesel fuel stickers. I have been told that this practice may void their warranty, but the owners seem not to be concerned. I believe the VW's have had to change injectors prior to going on full bio.
One of the G owners is on this forum has been very pro active at the bio diesel-fuel-from-any-source rage. His G is a little like the car in the movie, Back to the future. A special tank that is heated and sits inside the cab (rear of the rear seat). The normal tank contains blends of diesel and biodiesel, as required by ambient temps, while the inside take can be used exclusively for veggie oils from various sources.
I wish you lived a bit closer to Olympia, Dai. Perhaps when we organize our next luncheon we can let you know. Another diesel head is a good thing. I think that we plan to meet at the Fish Ale Pub in Olympia next month (Nov). It will likely be after the 16th or so.
Best wishes,
ts |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
But Alan, don't you think that some lube in the fuel itself will contribute to even longer life to these components? I am a fan of Redline Diesel Fuel Catalyst and have been using it for years. In the other Bosch injection systems I think it is critical. For example the Bosch system on the Cummins motors. If they don't see fuel lube they self destruct over time. Two thousand dollars later they are up and running at top performance but a small amount of preventative lubrication will keep things happy I suspect.
The difference in the motor when bio D is used or SVO in the 617 or turbo motors is remarkabe. Clearly quieter and smoother. A happy motor! I think a bit of fuel lube will help keep the big repair bills away. I don't think I takes much especially when synthetics are used.
-Dai |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
I was writing my response to Alan's post when your posted yours, Thomas. Amzimmy is supposed to visit around the 7/8th of Nov. People are welcome to come and connect with each other here. If can I get away I'll try to make the fish ale pub thing. We have a brewery somewhere around here that makes Moose Drool. Fish Ale and Moose Drool, lovely combo. I think I will stick with Sierra Nevada pale ale or Anchor Steam. 
-Dai
Edited by dai 10/28/2006 1:00 AM
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ufotwuk
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
Along with Dai, Alan, and Tom, I, too am interested in anything diesel that relates to G-wagens. I would like to continue reading about diesel-related topics here.
Phil |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
An interesting quote, especially the last paragraph, from Masstransitmag.com:
ULSD’s Lubricity
Lubricity is the other big concern from a performance standpoint. As new vehicle fuel systems move to higher and higher operating pressures and tighter and tighter metal tolerances, fuel lubricity is becoming more of an issue. The lubricity of the current on-road LS No. 2 diesel may or may not be enough for these new systems. To correct this, last year the ASTM adopted a lubricity specification into the D 975 diesel standard. The requirement is a 520 micron maximum wear scar diameter on a special instrument called a high frequency reciprocating rig, or HFRR. It took the industry some time to get this accomplished, but by now, nearly all U.S. on-road diesel fuel has sufficient lubricity or is injected with lubricity improvers at the terminals while it is being loaded into transport trucks.
The hydrotreating that removes the sulfur will also result in lower lubricity with ULSD. Aftermarket additive manufacturers and biodiesel proponents have been pushing their products as ways to correct ULSD’s poor lubricating properties. This is no longer necessary as terminals will continue to additize the fuels to meet the ASTM specification. The bottom line is that the additized ULSD will have better lubricity than the unadditized LSD we have been using for years. Lubricity is not a concern with ULSD, but this goes back to the earlier point — if you want diesel, buy diesel. If fuel is purchased as kerosene or fuel oil, it may not have these necessary additives. |
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Alaskagwagen
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
The latest from some diesel heads up here in Alaska is to use snow machine oil which is a two stroke oil deisgned for cold weather and is compatible with low sulphur fuels. It is mixed in at a quart per 20 gals or so. Supposedly it makes for a bit more smoke but does quiet down the pump. Keep in mind this was a group of dodge pickup truck guys talking. I think Alan's point about how our IPs are lubricated is important. So maybe its not so crucial. It does seem to make sense that if you are going to use osmething to add to the fuel - it should ld be designed to be burned - two stroke oil certainly is.
On an aside. I filled up today and the station de jour had regular #2 diesel - all the sulphur you want!
Adam |
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uberwgn
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
an interesting slide presentation from BOSCH:
http://www.licroc.org/Tech%20Articles/diesel%20fuel.pdf
the ASTM 520 micron spec may be borderline.
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
Interesting, but the data is 4 years old. Diesel fuels have since been reformulated with wear additives; and many vehicles have had extra water and particulate filters added. |
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iNeon
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
It isn't G related, but it doesn't have to be(I know there are 240GD cars around!!) here.
I fueled my 240D with 8 gallons of ULSD and when the car hit 160 miles on this measure of fuel, it cut off because the fuel ran out. More speciffically, it ran down the side of the IP and was squirting out of the primer pump.
Others have sworn that this is a neglected maintenence issue, but I will not accept that-- The car has never leaked for 2 years or 30,000 miles-- Not until I used that first measure of ULSD in it!!! He's a 1979 240D, turned exactly 154,010 miles today.
It is not coincidence. |
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BenzDieselTuner
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
wow, that really sucks, im sorry to hear your having trouble! so you have to replace the primer pump now?? |
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uberwgn
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication
DUTCH - 11/6/2006 7:07 PM
Interesting, but the data is 4 years old.
Have a look at the current ASTM spec for ULS fuel and how it relates to the BOSCH info -- whether 4 years old or otherwise, it's quite relevant. |
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Inkblotz
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 90 300GD "Thundering Turtle II", w/ 603A turbo
Posts: 3185
| RE: diesel fuel lubrication A couple of things
At each fill up I used to add a can of Marvel Mystery Oil to my old bathtub Porsche 356's when the did away with leaded Gasoline. Made a dramatic difference in helping lubricate the seals. I don't know if the same could be used in my Turbo D.
Along that line with the cleaning power of bio diesel does it contain the same or better lubricating capabilities of straight diesel? The need to replace all the rubber lines to a more substantial Viton line has me concerned.
Mark |
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iNeon
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
BenzDieselTuner - 11/6/2006 9:12 PM
wow, that really sucks, im sorry to hear your having trouble! so you have to replace the primer pump now??
I'm not sure about that-- About to go out and check, actually! |
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BenzDieselTuner
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: diesel fuel lubrication
good luck! |
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