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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| Ignition switch or starter relay?
My 86 280ge has acted up on me again. The first time it happened I was driving home from picking it up. I stopped for gas, and proceeded to start it. Nothing. I could hear the fuel pump prime, but that was it. I let it sit for prolly 5-8 minutes and it fired right up. I shrugged it off. It hasn't happened again until yesterday, stopped to get something tried to start it...nothing. Classic sign of a starter relay or neutral safety switch. I walked 2 miles home and jumped on here for a wiring diagram. Fortunately I found one, but didn't find a starter relay. It looks as if it comes strait from the ignition switch to the starter. Is this correct? |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
bmw4aaron - 9/21/2008 9:22 AM
My 86 280ge has acted up on me again. The first time it happened I was driving home from picking it up. I stopped for gas, and proceeded to start it. Nothing. I could hear the fuel pump prime, but that was it. I let it sit for prolly 5-8 minutes and it fired right up. I shrugged it off. It hasn't happened again until yesterday, stopped to get something tried to start it...nothing. Classic sign of a starter relay or neutral safety switch. I walked 2 miles home and jumped on here for a wiring diagram. Fortunately I found one, but didn't find a starter relay. It looks as if it comes strait from the ignition switch to the starter. Is this correct?
The Bendix or solenoid on the side of the starter is well known for getting clogged with oil/grease so that it won't work. This might be the cause of your problem.
Disassemble it and clean it out. Drill a small drain hole in the bottom of the cover before reassembly.
If you need the Allen head swivel socket bit that is specific for removing the starter, I have one that I no longer have a use for; and will sell it for a good price.
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
bmw4aaron - 9/21/2008 7:22 AM My 86 280ge has acted up on me again. The first time it happened I was driving home from picking it up. I stopped for gas, and proceeded to start it. Nothing. I could hear the fuel pump prime, but that was it. I let it sit for prolly 5-8 minutes and it fired right up. I shrugged it off. It hasn't happened again until yesterday, stopped to get something tried to start it...nothing. Classic sign of a starter relay or neutral safety switch. I walked 2 miles home and jumped on here for a wiring diagram. Fortunately I found one, but didn't find a starter relay. It looks as if it comes strait from the ignition switch to the starter. Is this correct? Just to clarify... is that NOTHING. As in no sound at all from the starter when you turn the key? If that's the case then your trouble could just as well be an electrical interruption prior to the starter, as any problem with the solenoid or starter. Go through the wiring, especially the connection block under the air cleaner housing and the grounding strap that connects starter to frame to body to battery. Of course it can be the solenoid or starter too. If it acts up like that again, try giving the solenoid a rap with a block of wood or the handle of a hammer. If the solenoid is the problem, sometimes a little whack is enough to get it to operate and save a little wear and tear on the Florshiems. When you're in there, make sure that the heat shield between the starter and the exhaust manifold is in place. If that's missing the starter takes a lot more abuse from the exhaust heat and will fail prematurely. If it comes down to getting a starter, or a solenoid, a search here or on BWF for "M110 starter" or 280GE starter" should turn up the generic Bosch number that will enable you to get a starter or solenoid at many more sources and better prices than shopping for G parts. Starting troubles on the G are hardly ever related to the ignition switch itself. ABout 100x more likely to be wiring or solenoid. And yes, the G is more like a Chevy than a Ford, in that the solenoid is on the starter, not on the fender or other external mounting. If the solenoid is the problem, you'll have to pull the starter to address it. The socket Dutch has is helpful, but I found I could reach those bolts with 2 12" extensions and a hex-bit socket. Even after the starter's out you may find the solenoid attached with some kind of goofy triangular socket screws, or something equally strange conspiring against your removal of the solenoid. But standard methods work (drill out bolt heads and replace with new bolts) if that's the case. -Dave G.
Edited by hipine 9/21/2008 1:05 PM
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
after its running again drill a hole here:
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Allister779
Date registered: Sep 2007
Location: Alberta
Vehicle(s): 1990 300GD
| Re: Ignition switch or starter relay?
Do you know if the starter on the OM603 is the same, and if so, would it be a good idea to drill the same hole? |
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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
Thanks for the replies. When I say nothing I mean nothing. I suspected it was electrical, but didn't know where the wires ran to. I did try wiggling the wire to the solenoid but still nothing. The red wire junction by the air filter is all green, it's been on my list of things to clean. If it is the starter, I just I'll just live with it for the winter until I do my OM617a swap. Thanks again! |
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Inkblotz
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 90 300GD "Thundering Turtle II", w/ 603A turbo
Posts: 3186
| Re: Ignition switch or starter relay?
As Dave mentioned if it is the starter whacking the solenoid with a pole of some kind will keep you running. In the old days when money was real tight I drove my old 220d for 2 years with a bad starter. I kept a 3 foot aluminum whacking pole in the trunk, worked great.
Mark |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
Aaron.if your 280 is an auto, I would put money on it being the neutral satey switch down on the gearbox. I take it you have 12/14 volt at the starter motor direct from the battery, and the earth strap is in good order, you need twelve volt at low amps to the solenoid to throw the switch in to the breaker across the power in the motor. this runs to the ignition switch from the bus bar and then from the ignition switch at the crank position down to the neutral isolation switch which is closed when the gear selector lever is in neutral or parkand will allow power back up via a block connector in the engine bay left side of engine round to the solenoid. I recently solved this problem on my 300gd in a thread headed "electrical glitch" the connectors in the block on the inner wing by the air filter are nothing to do with the starter but relate only to the generator. hope this helps.
The isolation switch is adjustable and if loose will give changing faults. Good luck.
Found the thread, may help
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=12609&po...
Edited by roughneck 9/22/2008 2:55 PM
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
roughneck - 9/22/2008 12:51 PM ..... I recently solved this problem on my 300gd in a thread headed "electrical glitch" the connectors in the block on the inner wing by the air filter are nothing to do with the starter but relate only to the generator. .... Oh, I hope I wasn't misleading. It was my understanding that the main + cable from the battery was terminated at that block on the inner wing below the air cleaner housing, and that + power to the rest of the vehicle origninated from that block. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. My truck is older and doesn't have the distibution block. -Dave G. |
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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
roughneck - 9/22/2008 2:51 PM
Aaron.if your 280 is an auto, I would put money on it being the neutral satey switch down on the gearbox. I take it you have 12/14 volt at the starter motor direct from the battery, and the earth strap is in good order, you need twelve volt at low amps to the solenoid to throw the switch in to the breaker across the power in the motor. this runs to the ignition switch from the bus bar and then from the ignition switch at the crank position down to the neutral isolation switch which is closed when the gear selector lever is in neutral or parkand will allow power back up via a block connector in the engine bay left side of engine round to the solenoid. I recently solved this problem on my 300gd in a thread headed "electrical glitch" the connectors in the block on the inner wing by the air filter are nothing to do with the starter but relate only to the generator. hope this helps.
The isolation switch is adjustable and if loose will give changing faults. Good luck.
Found the thread, may help
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=12609&po...
Great info! Unfortunately both times this has happened I didn't have tools with me and there is no certain temp or condition it happens, it's kinda scary. |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
Take it to a workshop. |
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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
roughneck - 9/23/2008 5:08 AM
Take it to a workshop.
Common,
The reason I became a BMW technician was to be able to afford/fix my own cars! I can learn Mercedes quirks just like I did on BMW's. |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
OK, then get it in a workshop, get underneath and start poking around, to remove the electrical feed to the inhibitor needs no tools, to remove the inhibitor takes one 10mm, to remove the starter is a bit more work and is best achieved from below, in the UKa replacement recon is around £100-00 and the whole change shouldnt take more than 90 minutes. go for it.  |
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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
That's more like it!
I crawled under today, and wiggled the connector around. seems like the whole connector and housing moves around. Where it seems like the switch mounts to the transmission, stays firm in place. The plus side is it was dry, and not all covered in fluid! |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: Ignition switch or starter relay?
Poke around a bit more and you may have found your problem. |
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bmw4aaron
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Fishersville, VA
Vehicle(s): Dodge 2500 CTD
Posts: 136
| Update
So this problem has been happening more frequently. So today I figured out the wires for the neutral safety switch that lead up to the loom on the bulk head and jumpered the wires. Starts fine. So I threw my jumper wire in the truck and set out for the day knowing it wasn't gonna start again. Sure enough my first stop, nothing. Got out and hooked up my jumper wire....still nothing.  So I waited 10 mins or so, and it started right up. On my way I went. I made about 3 more stops after that, but allowing 20 mins between stop and starts. I knew the problem would only happen after a long drive and short cool down time. I finally made it to my inlaws, and I got it to act up. So my father in law threw a test light on the wire to the solenoid while I tried to start it and there was voltage. So now I believe what it happening is, since I do not have a heat shield on the starter, the solenoid is getting overheated thus causing the no start until it cools down. Someone in the past for whatever reason bent up an "Z" shaped pipe from the rear manifold and comes down about a 3/4" of an inch away from the solenoid, also would hit the front driveshaft on bumps  ! ! So this brings me to asks the experts, I can get a reman'd starter for cheap from advance auto for a 81 280e. I was wondering if its the same starter as my 86 280ge, and is the starter from a gasser the same as on a 617a? Thanks! |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Update
You can search here or on BWF for "m110 starter" and find the bosch number. -Dave G. |
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olasdeplata
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: At the Beach in Hatteras
Vehicle(s): 280GE convertible 84, 300E 89
Posts: 396
| Re: Ignition switch or starter relay?
I am having exactly the same issue. It only happens in hot summer days after the engine has been running more than 30'. My starter has the shield. I replaced it 30k miles, 6 years ago. I tried to whack the solenoid, and nothing happened on my last break down.
My plan is to replace it again and check what happens. The cars an automatic transmission.
The biggest issue, is that it always happens in the road and can not be replicated at home to find the fault.
I will report if the problem gets cured with the new starter. Car has 130k miles and all wiring seems to be in excellent condition.
Edited by olasdeplata 9/30/2015 4:26 AM
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: Ignition switch or starter relay?
I'd run a wire down to the starter. The next time it fails, check to see if it gets 12V when you turn the key. If not, jumper it to 12V and see if it starts then.
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DesertStar
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
| Re: Ignition switch or starter relay?
olasdeplata - 9/30/2015 1:24 AM I am having exactly the same issue. It only happens in hot summer days after the engine has been running more than 30'. My starter has the shield. I replaced it 30k miles, 6 years ago. I tried to whack the solenoid, and nothing happened on my last break down. My plan is to replace it again and check what happens. The cars an automatic transmission. The biggest issue, is that it always happens in the road and can not be replicated at home to find the fault. I will report if the problem gets cured with the new starter. Car has 130k miles and all wiring seems to be in excellent condition. FWIW, I had similar issue and it turned out to be the neutral safety switch on the side of the transmission. The white "lock" (see photo) that twists and hold the connections in place was gone and the connection was however tight the pins fit/pressed into the receptacle...tight enough most of the time but reared itself when very warm and became quite often in the last Death Valley trip. Funny though, wacking the starter always worked to start. When I got home, I noticed connection was not in all the way and there was no lock so I replaced. Never had a problem since. I am using same starter without the heat shield. Mike
Edited by DesertStar 9/30/2015 2:30 PM
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