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rekogniz1
Regular
Date registered: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500, Land Rover Disco II, Jaguar S-Type
Posts: 81
| 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
I have a 1999 g500 and it just started randomly activating the rear diff lock without me pushing the button. This will happen after about 10-15 minutes of driving. If I shut the vehicle off for a few hours and restart sometimes it will go away but then again after driving will engage again. It is only the rear diff lock and the red light to the right of the button that lights up (and of course the abs light will come on as well when the diff lock is activated). Any ideas? It is about 2 below 0 outside?? |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Perhaps the vacuum valve that drives the rear pressure accumulator is opening up? You could find the vacuum line leading to the locker controls and remove and plug it (with a golf tee) as a test and/or short term fix. The vacuum valves are found just inboard of the brake booster.
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rekogniz1
Regular
Date registered: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500, Land Rover Disco II, Jaguar S-Type
Posts: 81
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
So I was driving to night and when turning a corner it came out. When it came out it sounded like the sound was from upfront not in the back and sounded like it was bound up? Any ideas? I did not think anything by the trans would have any control over the rear diff lock. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Take a look at the diagram here . To disable the system, you want to stop the vacuum at the black "peace symbol" connector shown in about the middle of the diagram. If you block the vacuum there, the system cannot lock up anything. The trick is finding that connector under your hood It is probably black rubber and it should be located roughly between the brake booster and the transmission tunnel. 
Edited by AlanMcR 12/7/2013 12:09 AM
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rekogniz1
Regular
Date registered: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500, Land Rover Disco II, Jaguar S-Type
Posts: 81
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Thank you for the replies. Does anyone have an idea as to what could cause this to just engage without pressing the button. The weird thing is, the rear differential should not activate unless the center (first in sequence) is active first. It is also strange the only the red light comes on immediately when this happens not the yellow light first. according to the buttons Center is #1, Rear is #2 and Front is #3 so I am clueless as to how the red light on the rear just comes on and activates the rear only?? |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
There are three vacuum valves in the picture above. If the valve controlling the rear locker (the left one on diagram) fails "open" then the locker will engage. The yellow light only indicates that the button has been pressed on the dash. Handy tip for people experiencing the opposite problem (button pressed, no locker action). You can force the lockers on by applying vacuum directly to the intensifier. Keep a 6" section of vacuum hose in your repair kit. |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Thats good to know especially if you bust a front CV joint and need to remove it and drive home with the front locker engaged. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
I have seen only one (confirmed) busted CV on the G since 1979
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rekogniz1
Regular
Date registered: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500, Land Rover Disco II, Jaguar S-Type
Posts: 81
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
The temp has increased a bit and started to thaw. Since the outside temp has been above 25 the problem has not happened. Really weird that the temperature would cause such an issue. Just wish I know what it was so I can make sure it doesn't happen when the temp drops back down in the coming weeks. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
To diagnose this any further, you need to figure out if this is an electrical, or vacuum problem. I'd figure out which of the vacuum valves controls the rear, then unplug the electrical connector from it. If you still have the problem then it is in the vacuum system. If so, then you switch the hoses, so that a different valve does the work. If the problem moves to the front or center diff then you have your answer.
My money is on the vacuum valve or the little air filter thing that bleeds off vacuum.
Edited by AlanMcR 12/12/2013 2:28 PM
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jwmol
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Netherlands
Vehicle(s): G300TD, Volvo TGB13, Vito 120CDI, Renault Trafic
Posts: 194
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
If you pull the hose from the valve operating the rear locker you will (hopefully) see this goes away. I have had this happen on the front locker, same symptoms. Replacing the vacuum valve cured the issue.
JW |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
jwmol - 12/12/2013 1:02 PM If you pull the hose from the valve operating the rear locker you will (hopefully) see this goes away. I have had this happen on the front locker, same symptoms. Replacing the vacuum valve cured the issue. JW A self-energizing front locker is a really scary thought. Does it at least flash up the ABS warning triangle? Or, is the red light next to the locker switch the only indication? (Aside from the sound of leaving the roadway at high speed).
Edited by AlanMcR 12/12/2013 4:20 PM
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rekogniz1
Regular
Date registered: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500, Land Rover Disco II, Jaguar S-Type
Posts: 81
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Sounds good, I will try to diagnose this weekend. Do you know where the vacuum valves and electrical connection are located on the 1999 g500 for the rear locker? |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
The cluster of vacuum valves is located in the engine compartment, against the firewall, between the air scoop and the big aluminum pedal box. To figure out which valve does what, put your fingers on the valves while someone pushes the buttons. No need to have the engine running, though the ignition may need to be in the ACC or ON position. Once you can match the components to the diagram you'll figure it out pretty quick.
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jwmol
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Netherlands
Vehicle(s): G300TD, Volvo TGB13, Vito 120CDI, Renault Trafic
Posts: 194
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Alan,
I think you are right. The problem I had was a long time ago, and it was more not dis-engaging than self-engaging. Maybe the design is (should be) intrinsically safe in this respect.
JW |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
4x4abc - 12/11/2013 8:50 PM
I have seen only one (confirmed) busted CV on the G since 1979
I was on a trip with another forum member deep in the middle of a pretty remote area of the desert here in the UAE & he snapped a CV on his G500, IIRC it had been replaced not long previously. His Wife also broke one on their G55 as well, so I know for a fact they are not unbreakable.
To get out of the desert we removed the busted CV and he was able to drive out with the everything locked up but he had trouble with his rear locker so struggle a bit with an unlocked rear diff and only1 CV joint in the front but he did manage to get out under his own steam.
I think I have a photo of us removing the CV joint somewhere and will post when I find it. |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| Broken CVs
Completely broken CV joints must be super rare, I have never seen a shattered bell or sheared stub, yet worn out CV joints are all over the place.
I have replaced nearly a dozen for customers that had radial play or chewed up threads mostly due to loose wheel bearings.
I foolishly drove my 280GE from the "Aftershock" trail in Johnson Valley, CA to my home in Santa Fe, NM on a bad front wheel bearing in my early days of G ownership. The front right wheel bearing had a small bit of play at the beginning of the journey, after 800 miles on Interstate-40 the front hub, cv joint and CV housing were all damaged, hub grease was billowing smoke and nearly catching fire. Thats when I finally stopped, called AAA and got the G towed the final 50 miles home.
I already had replacements for everything but the CV joint (benefits of living in a G junkyard with piles of broken axles, left overs from Europa Intl. crash testing), which was blue from heat and had a little radial play, so regrettably I reused it.
This loose CV lasted for a couple years of hard use before its ball retaining cage shattered while traversing Pritchett Canyon in Moab, UT.
The G tackled the rest of the difficult trail in 3 wheel drive and it got me back home to Santa Fe.
I repair G axles, and Im noticing that the early style 460 front axles with oil seals next to the diff (as opposed to later axles with oil seals at the outer end of axle tube) do not wear out CV joints as readily when the wheel bearings are loose because the entire axle shaft can "float" inside the axle tube, maintaining square CV alignment despite the floppy hub. However I do suspect that this could inflict some damage to the differential instead (axle shaft engaging bevel gear at a funny angle), a differential is much more expensive and difficult to replace than a CV joint.
Driving on loose front wheel bearings in any G must be avoided at all costs! The potential for a chain reaction of super expensive part failures is very real.
---Be sure to employ a shop that uses the correct tools for those wheel bearing jobs! If the old bearing/race is removed with a chisel/punch instead of the correct sized mandrel be weary, using the punch method will deform the soft CV housing material and if these "high spots" are not removed, the new bearing/race will never fully seat, this always results in premature wheel bearing failure.
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Rekogniz1,
Your issue sounds like the vac valve for the rear diff lock is failing, I would unplug the " blue" colored vacuume line entering the side of this valve and cap both ends, this will allow you to drive the vehicle without risk of the diff lock engaging while you wait for a valve. These same vac valves are found in nearly every mercedes passenger built since 1978.
I'm attaching a pic of me putting my finger on the rear diff lock vac valve:
 (4E33ACB5-7212-491D-8407-7B9D83876193.png)
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 4E33ACB5-7212-491D-8407-7B9D83876193.png (132KB - 0 downloads)
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GwagenLover
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Winston Salem, NC USA 27104
Vehicle(s): 2016 G550 & 2016 GLE350
Posts: 473
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
colsG55 - 12/12/2013 12:35 AM
Thats good to know especially if you bust a front CV joint and need to remove it and drive home with the front locker engaged.
I'm not too sure you can remove the front drive line.
I think it drives the oil pump in the transmission. or so I have been told. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
GwagenLover - 12/22/2013 7:00 AM colsG55 - 12/12/2013 12:35 AM Thats good to know especially if you bust a front CV joint and need to remove it and drive home with the front locker engaged. I'm not too sure you can remove the front drive line. I think it drives the oil pump in the transmission. or so I have been told.
Edited by AlanMcR 12/22/2013 10:25 AM
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
GwagenLover - 12/21/2013 6:00 PM
colsG55 - 12/12/2013 12:35 AM
Thats good to know especially if you bust a front CV joint and need to remove it and drive home with the front locker engaged.
I'm not too sure you can remove the front drive line.
I think it drives the oil pump in the transmission. or so I have been told.
The CV is no problem, you just need to be carrying a hub socket for the strip down & rebuild. IIFC we just removed the outer part of the CV with the balls etc, Mike know the details better as he had to rebuild it all again a week or so later.
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
AlanMcR - 12/21/2013 6:24 PM
GwagenLover - 12/22/2013 7:00 AM colsG55 - 12/12/2013 12:35 AM Thats good to know especially if you bust a front CV joint and need to remove it and drive home with the front locker engaged. I'm not too sure you can remove the front drive line. I think it drives the oil pump in the transmission. or so I have been told. It works just one as long as you keep the center locker on, which you would have to have on anyway in order to move (on a W463 ).
With CDL locked on the road I am guessing you could still suffer transmission wind up even with only one front CV fitted, so by rights if you tap into the main engine vacuum source you could just actuate the front locker.
I was in a similar situation earlier on this year with my LR Defender, I busted a CV in the desert which I did not realise, I heard a small pop but had no idea I had busted the CV joint until I came out of the desert and de-selected the CDL and had no drive, I quickly worked out the problem and due to the heat and the fact I had my 3 year old son in the car I was in no situation spending a couple of hours ripping the CV out for the drive home. I ended up engaging the front ARB locker and was able to drive home slowly, luckily I was only about 30km from home. Luckily the hub suffered no real damage just a few marks where some of the broken bits caught the CV and the inside of the hub. My Defender has a rear Detroit locker, CDL and an ARB front so you can drive with any combination of locker engaged that you want unlike the set up with the G's.
Edited by colsG55 12/22/2013 12:17 PM
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Some pictures that Col referred to regarding the snapped front CV. We were about 40 miles from the nearest road in the far western desert of the UAE (the Al Maghrib). My rear diff was not engaging. I ended up in a dune V-cleft with my front right wheel lowest (diff was engaged) and when I tried to reverse out the CV snapped. Photos show the outcome.
As for why the rear diff was not engaging, I had previously changed the diff lock collar in the axle tube to resolve it but when I stripped it down a second time the diff bearings were toast and the shims were also messed up; I don't know why.
 (Copy of Makeshift Desert Workshop.jpg)
 (Copy of Author and broken CV.jpg)
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Copy of Makeshift Desert Workshop.jpg (305KB - 0 downloads)
Copy of Author and broken CV.jpg (186KB - 0 downloads)
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Min,
Was the diff lock collar first replaced because its teeth were deformed?
If so, the differential carrier must also have had deformed teeth, most likely due to improper locker use (engaging while tires are spinning), so it makes perfect sense to me that just replacing the collar would not fix the problem. If those deformed teeth can't fully interlock when locker is used, high tensile strength metal chunks will soon be floating around inside the axle. Definitely not good for diff bearings or the ring and pinion gears.
I wonder how long your G500 had to rely on the front axle alone for traction before one of the CV joints failed.
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: 1999 G500 Rear Diff Issue
Chris, you contributed to the original diagnosis here:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=15892&st...
There are photos of the original diff and slider teeth. Opinion seemed to be that they weren't too bad. The diff did re-engage with the new lock collar but this masked a problem that reared its head not associated with the teeth. My guess was that there was something to do with the associated axle splines that prevented the lock collar moving to engage.
As a result I now have a rear axle in my yard that's a refurbishing project!
Edited by MiN 12/24/2013 1:23 AM
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