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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Hi everyone -
I have just been able to finally acquire a G500! It's a 2003 with 83K on the clock, Tektite gray and black interior. The original buyer checked off most options except for the towing package (which I am in the process of adding). It even has the Bluetooth puck that paired with my iPhone perfectly. It has new tires, new brakes and rotors, and a fresh service. This truck has spent most of its life parked at the country club, so it seems to be in very good nick.
This board has been a great resource even before I purchased the G in that re-reading various threads gave me the "heads up" on what to look for. As a new G owner, I know I will have the usual twenty stupid questions as time goes on, but as with every MB I have or have owned, each is a learning experience. Much of what I know from other models may apply to the G, but it is clear that there is a tremendous wealth of knowledge here that I hope to learn from. I would like to say thank you all in advance to those on this board for any help you provide!
- FD
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Congrats and welcome! Many adventures ahead I'm sure.
-Dave G. |
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t_b
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2013
Location: Virginia, USA
Vehicle(s): 2006 G500
Posts: 50
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
You're at good number of miles at which to clean out and re-grease your intermediate drive shaft CV joints, or at the very least check the boots for cracks and go from there. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
t_b -
Thank you for the suggestion. I did indeed go out and re-inspect the various drive shafts and sure enough, I found a crack on the rear CV boot of the center shaft. Somehow I missed that on my initial inspection. The crack is at the narrow part of the boot so I don't think the CV grease has "flung out", but the fact that the boot is open means that water can get in. I suspect that all might not be well with the rear CV joint.
As part of my "research" into a G, I "studied up" on some of the common issues and the center drive shaft is one of them. It seems that the options are bend over and buy one from MB, pull the shaft, inspect the CV joints and hope I just need new boots, and if the joint(s) are toast, buy a GKN CV rebuild kit. The problem, as I understand it, with the latter options is getting the drive shaft balanced after the CV joints afterward.
So, are there any other options? What would people on the board (who have a lot more G experience than I do) recommend? I don't want to let it go lest I damage the bearings/seals on the transfer case.
Thanks!
- FD
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust - 6/22/2014 6:56 PM
So, are there any other options? What would people on the board (who have a lot more G experience than I do) recommend? I don't want to let it go lest I damage the bearings/seals on the transfer case.
Thanks!
- FD
Another option is to buy the complete GKN shaft from a supplier like EuroTruck. It's complete and considerably less expensive than the MB labeled identical shaft from the same maker. |
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t_b
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2013
Location: Virginia, USA
Vehicle(s): 2006 G500
Posts: 50
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
So, are there any other options?
Cracked boot or not the grease in your CVs is done by now and has likely hardened after more than a decade (assuming it hasn't been replaced/serviced).
My rear boot was cracked as well, also on the skinnier shaft side. When I disassembled my CVs the front and rear looked essentially the same - caked, a bit pliable and certainly not anything like grease.
I opted for the CV boot kits and that was all I needed. Unless you already have a driveline imbalance then the rebuild kit is probably overkill. Some people prefer overkill, however! 
And I wouldn't worry about balancing the shaft if you're just going to re-boot/re-grease the CVs. Mark the plated steel covers and the CV outer race so that you can note how they were aligned. Before you pull it apart also note the position of both boot ring crimps, and then place the crimps in the same location when you button everything back together - easy.
If I were doing the complete CV overhaul I would certainly opt to have it balanced, as new and heavy parts are being introduced.
You'll be very intimate with the underside of your G by the time you're done. 
Edited by t_b 6/22/2014 8:40 PM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
DUTCH - 6/22/2014 7:27 PM
Floobydust - 6/22/2014 6:56 PM
So, are there any other options? What would people on the board (who have a lot more G experience than I do) recommend? I don't want to let it go lest I damage the bearings/seals on the transfer case.
Thanks!
- FD
Another option is to buy the complete GKN shaft from a supplier like EuroTruck. It's complete and considerably less expensive than the MB labeled identical shaft from the same maker.
That is the option I would prefer as I would like a "one and done" scenario as I hope to keep the G for some time, but their website says that are "sold out" of the complete GKN shaft. Also, if the wife finds out that the new "thing" I bought needs more work, I will be dead, or at least in dry dock for quite some time. I will call them in the AM to see what the scoop is and see if they expect to have more. Thanks! |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Well, I checked with euro-truck and while they are expecting the GKN drives hafts, they don't know for sure when they will get them. They do have the CV re-build kits, but finding someone to balance the re-built shaft is difficult, if not impossible. I find it interesting that there are no balancing weights or drill spots to indicate that these shafts have been balanced, so I'm not sure what the manufacturer actually does to "balance" the shafts.
I took the G out for a careful road test and I noted that there seems to be a little drive line vibration over a very narrow speed range of 58 - 60 mph. The high "Q" of this vibrational mode tells me that whatever is causing it is something of a low weight that is turning fast. In other words, most likely the small first drive shaft.
I also took out my endoscopic camera system and "scoped" the CV joint with the cracked flex boot. That showed that there is still grease around the ball bearings and carrier, but water has clearly been getting in as the shaft itself has rust spots on it. The grease is still "shiny" and clean, but I can't see if the ball bearing have been damaged due to resolution limits on my scope. My scope, in theory, has a picture capture function, but I haven't been able to get it to work so far or I would post a picture of the inside of the CV joint.
I am reticent to drive the G much with the shaft in this condition as I do not want to damage the transfer case bearings/seals, so it looks like my only option at this point is to pull the handle and flush a kilo-buck on the MB drive shaft. If anyone has any further suggestions, I'm all ears!
Thanks,
- FD
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
You haven't said whether you've checked the CV joints for wear, i.e. is there any vertical movement?
You should be able to move the shaft backward and forwards but you need to grab it and try and move it up and down near each CV joint. If there's noticeable movement then you will need to change the CV.
If there's no vertical movement then the CVs are ok and all you need to do is change the boot/s, having regreased the CVs while you're at it. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
MiN -
Thanks for the info. When I checked the shaft play with the transfer case in gear, I could not detect any vertical play. However, when I put the TC in neutral so I could turn the shaft, I found that that rear CV joint had vertical play with the shaft in certain orientations. The front one is completely tight, but it looks like the rear CV joint is toast.
I am going to check tomorrow to see if I can find a drive line shop that can/will do a high speed balance on this shaft. There is one in North Carolina that does VW CV joint axles (which use essentially the same CV joint) and can balance up to 9K RPM. We'll see if they will do an MB shaft. That would be ~$215 for the GKN kit plus balancing. If not, I will break out the Vaseline and order up a new MB drive shaft (463 410 07 02).
I am still having trouble understanding how this particular drive shaft can be balanced by merely rotating the retaining clips of the CV boots. If you look at the rotational inertia for the unbalanced weight for these versus the potential unbalanced weight contained within the CV joint and shaft, I don't see how it is possible for them to "counteract" each other. I must be missing something.
Thanks again,
- FD
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . . Driveshaaft outcome
Well, I decided to take a bit of a leap - I ordered a CV rebuild kit for the bad joint, a boot kit for the good one, and 12 new nuts from the nice folks at Euro Truck and, after reviewing the DIY on homeokinetic drive shaft service (thank you G-AMG) I set about rebuilding of my current drive shaft.
I carefully marked the position of the CV joints relative to the flanges on the TC and transmission. I located these marks where the large CV boot clamps were so I got a two for one. In addition, I marked the position of the small clamps.
And, I also marked the position of the CV joints relative to each other and the shaft (e.g., the "phasing"). I know that, in theory, Rzeppa joints like those on this shaft do not need to be "phased", but the reality is that ball bearings have mass and races have friction, so there can be difference in required rotational torque as a function of both angle of rotation and angle of deflection. So, for better or for worse, I maintained the OEM phasing.
I found the following to be a slight improvement over the procedure in the DIY. I put the TC in neutral and left the transmission in neutral until I rotated the drive shaft so the one of the bolts was exactly at the bottom. I then put the transmission into park which locked the shaft. In this position, the bottom three bolts at end end could then be removed (I used a ratchet handle to "break" the nuts and then a air ratchet to zip them off). I then put the transmission into neutral again, rotated the shaft 180 degrees, and repeated. It took me less than 20 minutes to drop the drive shaft. One thing I noticed is that the original nuts required a 17mm wrench while the new ones require a 16mm wrench. This meant the the original nuts were effectively "stopped" by the flange whereas the new nuts required a counter-wrench to prevent spinning, so this procedure may not work as well if your shaft has smaller nuts.
I did not remove the good CV joint and just re-packed it on the shaft. The OEM grease is very soluble in mineral spirits, so I used that for the bulk clean out, followed by brake cleaner until squeaky clean. I also discovered that one can remove the balls one at at time (so they remain in the same location), fill their raceway with grease, an put them back in. I installed the new CV joint, preserving the phasing of the original and packed with grease. I packed the entire 120 gram tube that came with each kit into each joint.
The DIY says to use channel-lock pliers to clamp then CV covers on, but I purchased six extra (shorter) bolts from the hardware store so that I could bolt the two CV covers into place while the sealant set - just tapping them on and compressing with the pliers did not result in an even fit. I felt this was important for two reasons - one, I wanted the seal to be perfect and the sealant instructions assume you will be installing the CV joint to the flange within 20 minutes (never going to happen) and two, it is just barely possible to get the drive shaft back into position, even when compressed to the max. If the covers are not firmly pressed onto the CV joint, it will be impossible.
After the CV joints themselves were done and the new boots were in place, I firmly clamped the small boot clamps per the marks from the original locations. I clamped the large ones somewhat tight, but still loose enough that I could rotate them if I had to.
Re-installing the drive shaft was a pain in the ***! I had to use some drill bits as "pins" to hold the rear CV in place relative to its flange while prying the front CV to be parallel to the transmission flange. Ouch.
Once the shaft was "in", I used the air ratchet set to 20 N-m to quickly tighten the bolts/nuts into position. I then used the torque wrench to tighten in a cross pattern to 60 N-m as stated in the DIY.
I didn't need to take advantage of the ability to rotate the clamps because the shaft was as smooth as butter right out of the gate! I re-clamped the large clamps, and opened a well deserved beer (or two). This process is certainly something that probably needs adult supervision, but it worked well for me.
Thanks again to everyone for your help,
- FD
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . . Driveshaaft outcome
I removed the intermediate drive shaft and sure enough, trying to pry it in sideways broke the seal between the boot flange and the actual CV joint. I could have learned from my experience, resealed things, and put it back in by first loosening the TC so I don't have to pry it in. BUT, upon re-inspection, it also appears like the front CV joint has play in it, so I decided to just say uncle, and order a new shaft. Correct orientation of the re-built shaft is easy because I marked the orientation, but I am unsure how to orient a new drive shaft. I have found some references to lining up the green dots to the drill holes on the flanges, but nothing really definitive.
Does anyone know the correct procedure for a new shaft installation? Is the procedure in the WIS? If so, does anyone have the WIS procedure?
Thanks!
- FD
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Go to this website: http://www.mercedestechstore.com/pdfs/index.htm
Under 'Files for 217 Training' download the booklet names 'Axles'. Page 8 of that booklet give you guidance on fitting the shaft.
In fact, while you're there, download files HO-01 to JA G component locator'. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
MiN -
Thank you for the link and the information. The new MB shaft arrived and it had no markings whatsoever on it - no green dot, no nothing. Inspection of the flanges on the truck also showed no color mark from which to be 180 degrees out of phase. So I installed the shaft with the crimped portion of the large clamps close to the drilled "balance" holes on the flanges. I did this because this is the orientation seen in all of the pictures that I have found with the shafts in place and it was the orientation on my truck to start with. I did note that two bolt holes had been "used' on the new the shaft assembly, presumably when the shaft was spun up to check balance.
Well, the G is mobile now, but the vibration at 58 - 60 MPH is still there. I am bummed! I tend not to suspect the intermediate drive shaft for several reasons. First, this is the third drive shaft configuration that has been on the car (original with bad CV, re-built, but leaky drive shaft, and now, new MB drive shaft) and vibrational characteristics have not changed that much. Second, if I put the TC in low and run the car to 27-30 MPH (which is the same intermediate shaft speed at 58 - 60 MPH in high), there is absolutely no vibration. And third, the vibration lets up if you lift off the throttle which is a classic U-joint/slip joint play symptom. So I am thinking that one of the other two drive shaft is the source of the vibration. I'm not sure how to do the differential diagnosis (pardon the pun) on this one . . . . I'm really hating my new G right now.
I did a postmortem on the rebuilt drive shaft and I found two things. One, as I suspected, I dented the sheet metal CV joint covers prying it in which resulted in a gap in the sealant. Centrifugal force forced the grease to fling out of the breach. And two, I did not get the clamp I left loose in order to "balance" the shaft tight enough. The grease that normally resides in the boot was flung out because of this. I absolutely recommend that anyone doing and R&R on this shaft loosen the TC mounting bolts (under five minutes to do this) and slide it back to give clearance to install the shaft. I'm going to re-grease the old shaft and reassemble it and keep it as a spare.
I'm going to have a Scotch and think about this.
Thanks,
- FD
Edited by Floobydust 7/18/2014 10:06 PM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Front CV Joint . . .
I think I read somewhere out on the net that it is possible to remove the swivel housing, withdraw the axle, CV, and hub assembly (including the outer swivel section) and inspect the CV joint boots without removing the hub and disturbing the wheel bearings (or more specifically, the bearing pre-load). Try as I might, I can't find that reference now, so I would like to ask the board if it is indeed possible. There is "black" grease in the right front swivel (and the proper green grease in the other), so I want to inspect the boot and replace the axle seal and axle bushing. The bearings have no play, so I would prefer not to mess with them right now.
Thanks!
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Front CV Joint . . .
Yes the assembly can be withdrawn if the upper and lower swivel pins are withdrawn (four bolts each) from the swivel housing and the ball seal removed. Brake caliper will have to come off first, or disconnect lines as you choose.
-Dave G. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Front CV Joint . . .
hipine - 8/17/2014 10:45 AM
Yes the assembly can be withdrawn if the upper and lower swivel pins are withdrawn (four bolts each) from the swivel housing and the ball seal removed. Brake caliper will have to come off first, or disconnect lines as you choose.
-Dave G.
Once all of that is removed, you will still probably have to rotate the assembly while pulling it out in order to clear the diff lock sleeve. The same is true in reverse when putting it back together. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Front CV Joint . . .
hipine - 8/17/2014 8:45 AM
Yes the assembly can be withdrawn if the upper and lower swivel pins are withdrawn (four bolts each) from the swivel housing and the ball seal removed. Brake caliper will have to come off first, or disconnect lines as you choose.
-Dave G.
heck yes, you can do that. But why? You will not be able to work on the CV joint - not even replace the boot.
It's like shortcuts in the desert - they usually take longer. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I thought I managed to reboot mine without pulling the shaft out of the axle ball. If I am remembering correctly, the clearance to access the larger boot clamp was very tight. Lots of fiddling to get it loose and then to apply and lock the new one. Note that you will need the tool described here: Link: CV Joint Rebuild to get the strap on properly. If my memory is right, it can be fit into the space between the large end of the CV and the axle ball housing. Not sure which side you are working on. If it includes the locker, then it can be difficult to line up the locker ring so that it lets the axle shaft out. The trick is to apply the front locker while turning the shaft and pulling it out.
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
I pulled the right axle today and indeed it was very straightforward, although a tad bit messy. Sure enough, black grease = bad CV boot. There was still plenty of grease in the CV joint itself, the joint appears to have no play, and the balls appear to be in good condition. Normally, I think this would call for a quick re-boot, but nothing is every easy with this G. Take a look at the picture I posted - see something missing? Yes, the circlip is missing the tab on one side so there is no way to compress the circlip to remove the axle and install a new boot.
So I am again stumped as to what to do. I'm not sure how to get the circlip out so I can install a new boot. Has anyone had this happen to them and have a solution? Do I have to replace a very expensive axle for a 50 cent circlip (seems to be a theme on the G)? Strangely, I was also hoping to see some CV damage as that would present a possible cause for the vibration issue I have been having (I ruled out the three main drive shafts). Even if I get the clip out (and a replacement is available), I'm not sure this will solve the vibration issue, so should I be thinking about a new axle/CV? I do have a new inner axle bushing as well (thinking that there might be too much play, thus allowing the axle to vibrate), but I don't know if I'm barking up the right tree.
Thanks,
- FD
 (CV Joint Small.jpg)
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gerryvz
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Hey Floob,
Do you have a progress report? I'm interested to hear how it's coming along...
Cheers,
Gerry |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
I don't remember mine even having one turned up tab. I recall bending a fairly standard ring expander and then grinding some slots into it such that it got a grip on the tails of the ring. (very fuzzy memory here) It may be that the ring has to expand so far that the tabs would run into the CV body on either side. Either way, I think MB would prefer that you buy another one. Given that it has no play, it is up to you to thwart their money grubbing ways :-).
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
It looks from your picture like you have the CV joint separated from the hub and bearings. If so, there's no need to remove the circlip and half axle from the CV joint to replace the boot. Just slide it on over the half axle. Been there and done that.
The bigger question is where is that busted off tab? Is it in the joint?
Also, if I remember correctly, that circlip needs to be expanded rather than compressed in order to remove the half axle. If so, the missing tab is pretty much superfluous - other than making sure it's not lodged somewhere in the joint. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
The CV is still in the hub. You can see the red in the background. The tab does not appear to be broken off, I don't think there ever was a tab. The desire is to fully clean out the joint, which is a reasonable goal. The correct ring expander will get him there. I do remember a frustrating hour or two before getting it apart.
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Hello Floobydust.
Looking great, thankfully you figured out how to get to that CV boot without loosening hub nuts.
Your cv joint clip looks perfect to me, nothing broken there.
MBZ wants you to think its impossible to remove that clip and just purchase a new axle from them. However, with the correct tools the CV should come apart in seconds. I do it all the time, but I have lots of practice and an entire shop setup for G axle rebuilding. The CV can be re-greased and a new boot fit without touching the clip though.
The real trick is removing one of the newly manufactured CV joints from its axle shaft, the new CV joints being made have no provision for clip removal!!! Gotta somehow pop it off in a press or cut it off I guess.
I'll try to attach a pic of the new "non removable" CV:
The only advice I can offer you on your quest for vibes is to stop suspecting the front/rear axle (not ever a cause of G vibes unless wheel bearings/pinion bearings are TOTALLY trashed, and start suspecting the one thing that causes 90% of all G vibes...
The tire balance!!!
I had to go through more than 6 tire shops before I found one that actually had a balancing machine calibrated precisely enough to get my tires truly down to zero.
My brother has been to 4 different shops and even bought a whole new set of tires for his '02 at the last shop and still had serious vibes, one imaginative yet ineffective tire shop told him his axle was the cause of the vibes (diff bearings?!?!?) until I took matters into my own hands and just swapped my rims/tires on his G and made him go for a drive. Solved, No more vibes.
He is still driving on his bumpy tires, still trying to get them balanced. I guess all the tire shops down in San Diego can't care for or properly calibrate their Hunter RF balancing machines, they are just making his vibes worse. Poor guy.
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michel bertin
Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: SFO Bay Area, CA
Vehicle(s): '02 G500, '14 G550
Posts: 124
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
+1 on first getting very good tire balancing when chasing vibrations.
I actually get mine done at my MB maintenance shop, Park Avenue Motors, in Palo Alto. They have a Hunter machine, calibrated, and well trained technicians. I had it done on several sets of 32" and 33" A/T tires 265/75R16, 285/75R16 and 275/65R18. Road Force Balance with rim /tire matching; the result is a beautifully smooth ride. This, followed by a wheel alignment allows to take my hands off the steering wheel for 10 seconds at 65mph and the G will fully stay in its lane and not sway by more than 1.5ft right of left (ans my G's are 9-12 yrs old and ~100K mi). |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Thank you everyone for your replies! Even though the boot can be replaced without removing the axle (or the axle nut), I would really like to inspect the CV joint races and clean it out completely while I have everything out. I did make a mistake on the snap ring - I was thinking it was an "innie" which would require two tabs in order to compress, but I see now that it is an "outie" so the one tab and the blunt end are just fine. I can expand the ring quite nicely, but the axle won't budge. It has been my experience in previous situations like this that this means either the snap ring is still hanging up just a bit or the axle splines are stuck. I tend to think the later because tapping or pushing on the end of the axle does not cause the snap ring to "bind up" as one might expect if the axle was moving freely. But I'm not totally sure. How common is it for the axle splines to stick and require some grunt to get out even after the snap ring is released?
I agree about tires being a big cause of vibration, but I am more suspect here because the vibration is torque sensitive - it changes on acceleration/deceleration, and in fact, one can "feather" the throttle to make it disappear. It also has a "thrum" or "howl" component to it. These characteristics are very atypical for tire issues (in my experience) and more indicative of excessive mechanical play somewhere. The items I have replaced so far as part of "the chase" for the vibration have all been things that would need replacing anyway (short drive shaft, tie rod ends, fluids change, and this broken CV boot). Once I finish the CV replacement (if it doesn't finish me), I plan to have the truck re-aligned and the tires re-road force balanced and we'll see where things stand with the vibration. At that point I will be out of "things that need replacing" and edging closer to "things to throw money and time at".
Thanks again!
- FD
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust - 8/19/2014 6:18 PM
Thank you everyone for your replies! Even though the boot can be replaced without removing the axle (or the axle nut), I would really like to inspect the CV joint races and clean it out completely while I have everything out. I did make a mistake on the snap ring - I was thinking it was an "innie" which would require two tabs in order to compress, but I see now that it is an "outie" so the one tab and the blunt end are just fine. I can expand the ring quite nicely, but the axle won't budge. It has been my experience in previous situations like this that this means either the snap ring is still hanging up just a bit or the axle splines are stuck. I tend to think the later because tapping or pushing on the end of the axle does not cause the snap ring to "bind up" as one might expect if the axle was moving freely. But I'm not totally sure. How common is it for the axle splines to stick and require some grunt to get out even after the snap ring is released?
- FD
Very common. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Well, the work is done, but the vibration continues . . .
I have completed the following in order to try and diagnose the vibration/rumbling/thrumming that occurs at a road speed of approximately 58 – 62 MPH (the vibration is torque sensitive in that changing from acceleration to deceleration affects it. Sometimes it is possible to "feather" the throttle so as to make the vibration disappear).
I replaced the homekinetic shaft with a new genuine MB shaft per the WIS and the W463 service and repair manual. The vibration remained after replacement. Note: the new MB shaft did not have the "green marking dots" per the WIS, so I oriented the shaft clamps in the same orientation as the original shaft.
I found CV joint grease in the right front axle joint housing and subsequently dismantled it and replaced the CV boot which was broken. The CV joint and the axle were is good condition so I replaced the boot. I also replaced the axle seal and the axle bushing. Again, no change in the vibration issue.
I have also replaced the drag links/ball joints for the steering as these were worn or the boots had been damaged (old age, not impact). The front end has been re-aligned and the tires have been road force balanced. No change in the vibration issue
All fluids in the TC and differentials have been changed with the approved fluids. The drives hafts have been greased as well.
I also replace the TC front drive shaft flange seal on the TC (per the WIS) since it appeared to be leaking slightly.
I did the following "diagnostic" tests:
I drove the truck at 28 – 32 MPH with the transfer case in Low. This results in the same homekinetic shaft speed as 58 – 62 MPH in High. There is no discernible vibration under these conditions.
I marked and then removed the front drive shaft and drove the truck (TC diff locked) at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present. I replaced the front drive shaft in its original orientation shaft and drove the truck at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present.
I marked and then removed the rear drive shaft and drove the truck (TC diff locked) at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present. I replaced the rear drive shaft in its original orientation shaft and drove the truck at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present.
The bearing free play is essentially unmeasurable on both the left and right side; there is no bearing free play if you try and rock the wheels either.
So I am stumped as to the source of the vibration. My local Indy shop doesn't have a clue either. I don't want to get into the mode of just throwing time and money at it, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
- FD
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thairish
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Tire balancing? That put a stop to my shakes that were recurring at about the same speed as yours. Good tire shop with a very experienced crew was all it took. |
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Have you examined the wishbone and trailing arm bushes on the front axle? The trailing arm bushes can be difficult to examine without taking the trailing arms off. Try wobbling the trailing arm with a large lever next to the two front bushes. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
MiN - 9/9/2014 1:55 AM
Have you examined the wishbone and trailing arm bushes on the front axle? The trailing arm bushes can be difficult to examine without taking the trailing arms off. Try wobbling the trailing arm with a large lever next to the two front bushes.
Yes! When I changed out all the rubber bushings in the front suspension, a similar vibration disappeared in mine. |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
You said earlier that you don't think it can be the tire balance because the vibes come and go and can be modulated with throttle, this logic may be flawed.
If you don't want to completely rebalance tires, try moving rear tires onto front axle. If the vibes move from the floor to the steering wheel...
Did you test the center shaft balance by putting tcase in Neutral, transmission in Drive and increase engine speed till the center shaft spins above 5000rpm? I realize your test in Low range should do the same job but I would perform this simple stationary test also.
Worn out radius arm bushings could cause vibes by slightly changing the axle's pinion angle, which could alter driveshaft u-joint angles (phasing) enough to create some unfriendly harmonics. Though if this was the case on your truck the driveshaft removal tests you just preformed should have exposed the front axle or rear axle bushings as the culprit.
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
chris505 - 9/9/2014 12:18 PM
You said earlier that you don't think it can be the tire balance because the vibes come and go and can be modulated with throttle, this logic may be flawed.
If you don't want to completely rebalance tires, try moving rear tires onto front axle. If the vibes move from the floor to the steering wheel...
Yes, the tires have been balanced twice as well as rotated front to back and cross rotated left front to right rear, etc. No change in vibration
Did you test the center shaft balance by putting tcase in Neutral, transmission in Drive and increase engine speed till the center shaft spins above 5000rpm? I realize your test in Low range should do the same job but I would perform this simple stationary test also.
I wish I could perform this test, but the electronics on the 2003 are too "smart" and won't let the transmission shift out of first gear if the TC is in neutral. The only way to get a high RPM test is driving in Low.
Worn out radius arm bushings could cause vibes by slightly changing the axle's pinion angle, which could alter driveshaft u-joint angles (phasing) enough to create some unfriendly harmonics. Though if this was the case on your truck the driveshaft removal tests you just preformed should have exposed the front axle or rear axle bushings as the culprit.
I agree that axle housing rotation under load can cause this, but running with no drive shaft should have ruled this out, although, as suggested above, I am going to inspect the trailing arm bushings, etc.
BTW, I had a friend drive the truck at the "resonance" while I "listened" at various places in the truck (and hoping not to get a ticket for not wearing my seat belt). It really seems to be coming from the front end somewhere. No floor vibration over the TC and no noise in the cargo area. |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Is the shop that balanced your tires this time the same shop as last time?
If yes, I would seriously suspect tire balance as the cause of your troublesome vibes.
If a different shop was used, I would still seriously suspect tire balance if I was in your shoes.
Been there, done that.
---This vehicles is more sensitive to tire balance than any other car on the road.---- |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I need to do my control arm bushes which I think will remove a speed and road surface related vibration.
When you look at the bushes they are OK but when you really crank then over a with a big screw driver you can see the rubber is breaking away a little where it connects to the inner metal part of the bush.
I have been living with it for a while as it comes & goes depending on the road your driving on, but now our summer is nearing an end it is almost time to crawl underneath & get on with it. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Bad to ugly . . .
I took the G to another Indy who was recommended by my first guy. He checked it out and has found play in both the front and rear drive shaft flanges on the transfer case. He invited me to come over and check in out while it was on the lift and the play is quite substantial - the flange/shaft will "tilt" (e.g., move off-axis) a good millimeter or two. This tells me that at the very least the drive shaft flange shaft ball bearings (one on each shaft) are bad and that the tapered bearings on the differential carrier may be bad as well. If you look at the design of that section of the transfer case, the drive shaft flange shaft is supported on one end by said ball bearing (part no. 0059811525 on the front and 0039818725 on the rear) and by the inside splined differential carrier which is in turn supported by the tapered bearings (0099815905 front, 0079812105 rear).
This type of "play" is exactly what I what I would think would cause the type of noise and vibration I have been experiencing. So a couple of questions if I might
- Is play in the drive shaft flange shaft "normal" (I would think not)
- Can such play re resolved by just replacing shaft the ball bearings (in each end cap) or is one looking at all four bearings?
- Can the shaft bearings be replaced with the transfer case in position by simply removing the end caps or does the TC need to be removed from the truck?
- Why would both bearings be bad at the same time?
I would appreciate any thoughts/help people have.
Thanks!
- FD
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Ive never seen 463 t case bearings go bad but their replacement is fairly strait forward (with the right tools).
They should have no up/down play like you describe, which would cause vibes and eventually wear out that end of the driveshaft.
You said you recently replaced a weeping t case output/input seal, perhaps the leaking seal drained all the fluid out causing bearings to run dry.
Do you have any records of the tcase fluid being renewed in the 83k miles before your purchase?
Filling a tcase with incorrect fluid (axle diff oil) may cause the fluid to foam and not lubricate bearings when driven. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Update . . .
I took the G over to a friend who has a lift that can support the G (mine does not have the necessary weight rating) and we carefully examined the transfer case flanges and determined that the "play" that was observed by the Indy was axial only. Pushing up on the drive shaft was causing the overall length of the flange-U-joint-shaft junction to increase which was pulling the flange in and out of the TC housing. This gave the illusion that the flange was moving radially, but in fact it was moving axially. If one looks at the design of the transfer case, some in/out play would be expected because the shafts that drive the output flanges are splined at one end and held by a ball bearing/circlip on the other, thus allowing some end movement. We could find no measurable radial movement of these flanges.
BTW, I tested the TC further as the source of the vibration by using wooden wedges to firmly anchor the TC to the chassis, effectively bypassing the TC bushings. The theory here is that if the TC is the source, the vibration should get worse when firmly anchored. Well, it made no difference, so I really don't think that the TC is where the vibration is coming from.
While we had the truck up on the lift, we took off the wheels, locked the differentials (to avoid spider gear damage) and ran it up to ~60 MPH and I could feel the vibration. But unfortunately, we could not localize the source of the vibration. Testing in this mode was very difficult because the electronic throttle system for the M113 engine can easily become unstable when the engine is run at speed with no load (the feedback transfer equation assumes a phase shift based on a loaded engine; when unloaded, the phase shift can approach or exceed 180 degrees which results in system instability). Running this way also makes the truck prone to throwing "transmission output speed sensor" codes as well.
So we let the drive train just idle along while we observed each component very carefully. What we noted was the both the front and rear drive shafts appeared to "wobble" - each in different places on the shaft and each with different amounts. The "wobble" was easily observable with the naked eye and was probably on the order of 1 - 2 mm. I took some crappy iPhone video, but have no way to "post" it. So the question if, how much "run out" or "wobble" is allowable on these drive shafts? What are the odds that both drive shafts are "bent"
What ever the source of the problem is, it is getting worse. The truck is now only really drivable under ~50 MPH. The affected speed range has increased to ~ 52 - 70 MPH. In a way, I sort of think of this as good news because I keep hoping that something will just break outright so I can fix it!
Does anyone have any further thoughts?
Thanks!
- FD |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Several months ago I saw a good tutorial video on prop shafts, I cannot remember if it was posted on on G forum or Land Rover forum but it was very good, they showed a shaft spinning on a bench, then put it out of phase, changed the drive angles etc & IIRC they do get a wobble up even with the input/output angle are only slightly off centre. It might be worth searching some of the forums or youtube for prop shaft video's, you may have movement but it just maybe OK. Removing the shaft & running them on a lathe or similar may show them to run true but when fitted with some offset may make them track off centre a little as you highlighted, but this might be within normal limits. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Good point. Any chance that someone removed/disassembled a shaft and got the phasing wrong?
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=470937339716400&fref=nf
Here is the video, it may be a phasing issue. |
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
It's easy to check too. There are phasing line-up marks on the shafts. The booklet you referred to for refitting the centre prop shaft has the diagrams showing what to look for. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
The phasing was the very first thing I checked. MB makes it easy by providing cast arrows that point toward each other. I'm thinking I may take the front shaft back off now that the vibration has gotten worse and see if there is a difference. I noticed that (but didn't take a picture of) the tell-tale oil ring on the slip joints that indicates how far down the shaft the slip joint has compressed had a curvy pattern to it the day was ran the truck on the lift. I got to thinking about what might cause that and concluded that a wobbly slip joint would leave just such a pattern. I went out to take a picture tonight and the ring is fairly straight - but that also makes sense because the suspension has had a lot of movement since I was on the highway and it was vibrating. I need to get it up to speed of vibration and smoothly coast to a stop and check it again.
In preparation (besides stocking up on Vaseline so it won't hurt so much), I have been looking into sourcing drive shafts. According the MB both the front and rear shafts (4604102118 Rear, 4604102218 Front) are showing as No Longer Available. The drive shafts for 2006 and later (4634101102 Rear, 4634101302 Front) are still available, but the question is, will they fit my 2003? The EPC indicates that 2006 (MY2007) was a transition year for this part, but I don't know what the change was. Does anyone know? Can anyone recommend a source for driveshafts or even driveshaft rebuilding?
Thanks!
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I had not heard of people doing it in G circles but in the world of Land Rovers where breakages are far more common, removing one of the prop shafts & locking in the CDL to drive home in 2wd is quite common, I have done it many times over the years myself.
To help isolate if your vibration is front or rear why not remove either your front or rear shaft, lock in the CDL so you still have drive then go for a drive, at least you will be able to confirm if your problem is from the front of rear.
Here are 2 example of my driving home in front wheel drive after twisting s prop shaft & another was after snapping both rear axles.
http://cdr.smugmug.com/General-Photos/General/n-Xx2rs/i-NCRqFVj/A
http://cdr.smugmug.com/General-Photos/General/n-Xx2rs/i-WgKp5F6/A |
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KJ6IRM
Member
Date registered: Oct 2012
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Vehicle(s): 2011 G550, 1989 E30 M3
Posts: 8
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust - 9/18/2014 4:54 PM
The EPC indicates that 2006 (MY2007) was a transition year for this part, but I don't know what the change was. Does anyone know?
It could be the transition to non-greasable u-joints. I know on the newer Gs that there are no longer any zerk fittings on the drive shafts. |
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NHDave
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2013
Location: Seacoast NH.
Vehicle(s): 2004 AMG
Posts: 465
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Incredible what your doing Floobydust... You'll learn a lot from all of this! And thank you for keeping us all updated with your progress.
I know many have mentioned tire balancing.... I'm curious if any one of the two places, where you had your tires balanced, gave you your balance numbers off the RF balancer? Some tires can be slightly out of round and those tires yield higher numbers. 0 being best, of course.
I bought four tire recently, my numbers range from 28 down to 7. The 28 couldn't be corrected, no matter how many times they repositioned the tire to the rim. I had it replaced, got a 11 from the new tire.
Best of luck with this. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Common things happen commonly.
The speed the vibration that happens is so typical of the G wobble issue and more likely your problem.
Does it go away at 80mph?.....at that speed there is enough pressure against the axle connections to the chassis to kill the vibes unless your tires are square.
A set of tires with low road force figures (all below 15 just like car tires),that look round when they spin on the balancer and do balance with out excessive amount of weight is the only way for a smooth G provided........trailling arm bushing are not worn,front shocks are good and your steering shock is not old.
I would suggest to go for a drive with out the steering shock and if you vibes get way worse you need a new steering shock fist of all and bushings on the arms.
If the tires are not quite round,low road force and balanced properly you will still have problems
The fact that it changes with acceleration or deceleration fits the tires ,bushings and steering shock issue.
The reason is you compress and extend your arms to the chassis bushings when you change speed as they move A LOT.
It is all unique to the front end design of the G because of the fact that has so much play on the front axle going forward and backwards due to the excessive movement allowed by the tralling arm to the chassis bushings unless they are new.....then they will still move that much if they had to, with the lockers engaged in a turn,and regain close to their static length position and dampen the vibes going straight before they deteriorate after a few miles......in the main time fresh steering shocks and perfect tires will keep your G smooth.
See if the vibes are minimized on a lengthy half circle steady radius sweeper you can take at 60mph where one side will set and kill or minimize the vibes.
Mario |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
It's been a while since I have posted an update - mostly because it has taken a while to continue to chase this issue, including waiting for parts (as you know, most G parts are just lying around on the shelf).
I determined that I was suffering from multiple sources of "vibration" so I have been chasing each one down trying to eliminate the overall issue.
One of the first things I looked into and early on my G was the driveshafts which appeared to be just fine. But as the vibration continued to worsen over time (my attitude was drive it until something breaks), I took another look at them. I removed the front drive shaft again and ran my G on a dyno where I could load the rear axle as I wished. What I observed is that under some loads, the rear drive shaft would oscillate visibly (that's the beauty of being on a dyno). I suspected a bent or unbalanced drive shaft, but when I removed it to inspect it, I found that there was a "flat spot" on the rear U-joint. This was not the case earlier, but it certainly is now. I replaced the rear driveshaft (I was able to find an NOS greaseable shaft (thank you to Sean at Eurotruck)) and that eliminated one small component of the overall vibration issue.
In case anyone wants to know, the old style greaseable front and rear shafts (4604102118 Rear, 4604102218 Front) are no longer available from MB, but the drive shafts for 2006 and later (4634101102 Rear, 4634101302 Front) are a direct replacement, but are the non-greaseable, "sealed for life" disposable variety.
Along the way, I found an MB DTB that said to to replace the transfer case bushings with all soft ("white") bushings for a "vibration complaint", so I figured WTF, and did it. I had previously inspected mine and they appeared to be good, so I had ignored them. I was shocked at how much of an improvement that made. It seems that sagging bushings can change the drive shaft alignment just enough to cause vibrations. I did some research and found that for TC equipped vehicles, a 1/2 degree error in alignment can cause vibration. Who knew.
Lastly, I replaced the steering damper and tightened the steering box a tad (yes, counterclockwise on that) and that seems to have tamed all of the vibration that could be felt in the steering wheel. Even the wobble of death seems to be under control.
But I still have the low frequency "droning" vibration in the 55 - 65 MPH range that started this whole thing off! This is more of a noise than a vibration that can be felt. One thing I have noticed about it is that the intensity comes and goes - some days you don't even notice it and some days you wonder if you're going to make it home. Let the truck sit for a few days, and it takes a few miles before it reappears. The noise itself sounds like the sound (not feel) of a driveshaft vibration, but the fact that it comes and goes kind of tells me it might be something like a bushing. I have new radius/trailing arm bushings on order, but I'm kind of running out of things to replace. Any thoughts?
One other thing - when I had it aligned, the shop noted that the left front camber was just slightly (0.1) more negative than spec. I would think bearings, but again, there is not measurable play in either wheel.
Thanks again everyone for your help and suggestions!
- FD
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NYG500
Member
Date registered: Aug 2014
Location: NJ/NY
Vehicle(s): 2007 G500
Posts: 43
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Glad your tracking the problem down and it has been getting a bit better, I'm sure your sharing your experiences will be helpful in the future to members who may suffer from similar complaints. Can you tell me about the greaseable NOS driveshafts you got. Were they just old stock pre-2007 drive shafts that Euro truck had or something else? I'm annoyed that my 2007 has non-serviceable disposable drive shafts. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I was really p*ssed to find non-greasable driveshafts on the G63. What BS. Mercedes is programming obsolescence into these vehicles.
ClubGwagen/ apparently offers new driveshafts that are user serviceable that were made in the USA. I do not know much about them.
I use Castrol Olistamoly 2 on my shafts / u-joints / slip joint. I grease them yearly. |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I changed the front radius arm & panhard rod bushes a few days back & it made a big different to front end vibration it is now probably 95% right but it always was & still seems to be quite road specific with vibration. Now to try & remove the last 5%, the previous owner must have chased the vib for a while as there are new tie rod ends and new steering damper fitted.
I might try to adjust the steering box next to see if that helps.
I also have pretty stiff springs which may make it worse on some road surfaces. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Read my post about having the wheels properly balanced by someone who knows what they are doing on a *recently calibrated* wheel balancing machine. To me, this is a big reason for drive vibrations on a G- improperly balanced wheels and tires. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust
Your camber is absolutely no problem,mine is the same since new.
I think with new bushings you will get to like your G lots more.....
Stiffer front springs help instead of making the vibes worse provided front shocks are good.
I know most do not want to look at this point but if you take your G and measure left wheel base and also right I bet they all are shorter on the left and that is why they are all leaning to the right seating taller on the left side.
I found that out when I had to discover why my amg pulled to the left on hard braking while towing or very hard braking for long distance.
If you shorten or compress your front tralling arm to the chassis bushings your front end gets taller.
This is because as the bushings compress the tralling arms go the an angle that shortens the distance axle to chassis.
If you put the truck on drive and brake hard so the truck will not move if you give it gas to go while standing still you will see your front end rise .......let of the gas while still on the brakes and it will stay taller because you just compressed your front bushings......let go of the gas and you will see your front end dip.
Your vibes start with the tires and as the wobble starts the front bushings are constantly letting the front axle face left and right as fast as the frequency of the wobble dictates and your caster constantly counter acts this by changing your steering to go to the opposite direction with the net result having the vibe getting worse if you accelerate because this ads to the compression of the bushings when worn with lots of play in them which creates more possible movement so vibes gets worse.
When you decelerate the opposite happens.
If you had solid bushings it would be even worse unless the chassis had no tralling arms and panhard rods front and rear but fixed position of wheels throughout suspension travel and a perfectly even wheel base left and right.
I tow a lot and that messes up the bushings fast ....when worn I can feel when my tire balance is starting to come out of being perfect.
The G needs ,perfect steering damper,tires wheels and bushings before one chases any other cause for vibration even more so if it is the typical 55-65 wobble they all get when these components wear out.
If you of road a lot with your G your bushings get a work out changing shape and then you might see the vibes go away for a while after leaving the trail.
Finally I think with out those flexible bushings on the tralling arms when the lockers are in on rocky terrain or good traction surface the gears might not be able to handle the force on all the wheels trying to run at uneven speeds while turning while they are locked to turn at the same speed,so the flex at the bushings help the loads to come in gradually......just theorizing here 
Mario
Edited by 512bbi 10/18/2014 1:09 AM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . . another update
Thank you again everyone for the additional information. I have now replaced the radius/trailing arm to chassis bushings, which, like many of the other bushings that I have replaced, resulted in an over all improvement. In fact, when it comes to chassis dynamics and over all feel, the G drives like a wet dream! Tire vibrations - gone. Steering wheel wobble of death - gone. All is good, except the droning in that 55 - 65 MPH range is still there. As I said before, this is a low, heavy sound and not a vibration you can feel. If you turn the stereo way up you would never know it is happening. But a normal levels, you can really hear it. Interestingly, the droning does not start the first time you reach the 55 - 65 MPH speed range - it takes driving for a few miles for it to emerge. But emerge it does. Ironically, now that the chassis is really tightened up I can hear the noise occur at a much lower level at 30 MPH as well.
I have ordered the axle to radius/trailing arms bushings as well and will be replacing those also. But I'm getting pretty stumped (and broke) here. I found an MB close by that has an acoustic triangulation system system and they think they can find the "source" using that, so after I replace the last set of bushings I'm going to take it up to them as see what they can do. I'm also going to have the kill than damn nasty speed controlled volume function on the stereo (using DAS). I will let everyone know what happens. And if you think of anything else, please feel free to post.
Thank you again to everyone! It's been quite a problem and I really appreciate the time/effort people have put in to help.
- FD
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
colsG55 - 10/22/2014 11:12 AM
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim.
On the same point I got one of my rims not as perfect as the rest even though not as bad as this one but it does effect things slightly.
I wonder if one that far out as yours where you can see it so easy if it is in fact possible to repair and be made perfectly round?
Mario |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .update
The G has been at the dealer for over a week and they can't find the source of the vibration/thrumming either. The service manager commented that the issue makes the truck so unpleasant he couldn't drive it if were his truck. They are expecting a new G in the next day or two and they are going to swap the wheels/tires and see if the problem goes with the tires or stays with my truck. He thought it might be a bit of a hail Mary, but they want to positively rule out tires/wheels. I can only hope as tires are cheaper than the remaining alternatives. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Wow.
Another thought.....Not every MB dealer is very G experienced.
If possible, I would call around and ask to see which dealer in your area services a good portion of Gs.
MB experience with road cars does not equal G experience.
Just some food for thought. It may be worth a drive to take it to someone more familiar with the vehicle that has had more training / better, longer experience. |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
512bbi - 10/22/2014 8:02 AM
colsG55 - 10/22/2014 11:12 AM
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim.
On the same point I got one of my rims not as perfect as the rest even though not as bad as this one but it does effect things slightly.
I wonder if one that far out as yours where you can see it so easy if it is in fact possible to repair and be made perfectly round?
Mario
I had the rear wheel which was slightly out of round which was on the front then moved to the rear straightened yesterday & it has made a big difference to the way the vehicle drives, it is far more pleasant without the vibration going through the vehicle. The vibration was not bad enough to be a real issue but of an annoyance & fatiguing. I would say the car is now about 97-98% right, with an A/T style tyre and stiff springs I am wondering it it is possible to get it 100% perfect, our roads are also not perfect so with the stiff springs I may be being to harsh & expecting to much.
Without doubt I think these trucks are very critical on wheel balance more so than only other vehicle I have owned.
It will be interesting to see how your truck is with a new set of wheels & tyres, I hope it fixes your long running issue.
Edited by colsG55 11/5/2014 4:28 AM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Well, I got the truck back from the dealer and to make a long story short, they were unable to find the source of the thrumming. I have to say that they put a huge amount of time and personal investment into looking for it, but they didn't hit me for a huge bill. I know it had to be money loser for them, but their commitment to finding the problem couldn't have been better.
They did rule out tires as the source of the issue because they swapped tires from a new g with no issues (one that belongs to a friend of the server manager who asked the friend for the favor) and the thrumming remained in my truck. Interestingly, the new Gs are coming with Khumo tires instead of Geolanders.
At the end of the day, their best guess is the transfer case, but they are not confident enough of that to say replace it. They recommended just driving it until it gets worse (kind of what I have been dong) so that a more positive diagnosis can be made.
While the G was there, I happened to be looking at some threads on the transfer case and one of them discussed TC oil. The MB recommended oil for my G500 is Synthetic SAE 75W-90 which is what I have in there. But I also noticed that for the G55 (with the same transfer case and differentials), MB recommended SAE 75W-140. This make sense given the extra power that the TC sees in an AMG model. But it occurred to me that I could use this in my mere mortal G500 with perhaps at most a small fuel consumption penalty (and let's face it, a small decrease from abysmal to more abysmal isn't really going to make a difference). I have noticed that the thrumming only starts after driving for a few miles, so I'm thinking that when something heats up, it gets lose.
So today, I changed my TC fluid to the AMG 75W-140 thinking that the extra viscosity at temperature might help. I haven't had a chance to really evaluate if it made a difference, but I will report back, plus or minus. If it does quite down, the dealer may be correct of the TC case being the issue.
- FD
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
The 75W-140 is for the axles only on the AMG model. The T/C case takes the same 75W-90 synthetic as the other models. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
This is the reference I used for that information. It says at the bottom of page 1 that for Model 463.270/271 (G55) the VG 150 E transfer case should use 75W-140. Interestingly, they specify 75W-140 only for the rear differential. It seems 75W-90 is okay for the front diff.
By way of an update from my commute in this morning, the 7W-140 seems to help a little, but the thrumming is still there. I'll just have to see how it goes.
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spec_sheet_231.1_2012.pdf (17KB - 13 downloads)
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I think you're mis-reading that spec.
The 2010 G-Class Owners Manual specs the same TC fluid for both the G550 and the G55AMG. The P/N is A.001.989.28.03, which is an 85W90 transmission oil.
It also specs Castrol SAF-X for both the front and rear axles/diffs in the G55AMG. It is a 75W140 gear oil. |
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
It's easy to mis-read. Having done all my own maintenance on a 2005 G55 for 5 years, I made sure what went where was right. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Interesting. . . The manual in my 2003 doesn't really say much about the G55 because in that year it was just a G500 with an extra 1/2 liter of placement. The real power didn't start until supercharging. The document(s) I have are all copyright MB, so they come from the source, so I'm curious how they should be read. Given what has been posted about what is noted in the later G55 manuals, I'm not sure what to make of the section, "Model 463.270/271 - 75W-140" in these documents. Is there an error in the documentation?
Interestingly, the thrumming noise is significantly improved (but not banished) with the new oil in it. Given the way multi-grade oils work, I'm not sure what the downside would be of running the heavier oil. I'd be curious what people have say about this.
edit:typos
Edited by Floobydust 11/10/2014 2:37 PM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . . update
I wasn't able to track down the reasons for the dichotomy between the later AMG owners manuals and the MB engineering sheets for lubricants, so I changed the transfer case oil back to the 75W-90. I can still use the 74W-140 in the differentials according to both sources.
As I posted earlier, the dealer was not able to track down the source of the noise, so I took some unorthodox steps to track things done, or at least rule out certain components as the source. I realized that the TC is located just in front of the battery box and the transmission rear bearing is right behind the small removable carpet panel in the passenger foot well. So I removed the battery cover and the carpet piece and drilled a 1/8" hole through the sheet metal in each location. This allowed me to insert an automotive stethoscope through the hole and contact the TC and the transmission. With the scope inserted through the hole (and a friend driving) I was able to both hear the sounds of the gears running and feel the TC move as we drove. I could hear nothing but the sound of fine running machinery nor could I feel any movement associated with the vibration/noise. I was, in fact quite surprised by how smooth both boxes ran. I sealed the holes with small rubber plugs carried by our local hardware store (the old fashioned kind with lots of actual hardware).
So I can now say that the source of the noise is not the TC, the transmission, the homekinetic shaft, nor either driveshaft. It isn't the tires either as I also picked up another set of 2007 wheels and slightly larger tires (along with a genuine brush bar and LED DRL headlight surrounds) and the noise is exactly the same with the new tires, although the speed that it occurs at is slightly lower as would be expected from the larger tires (~6% speedo error with those tires). I know it is unlikely, but is there a tire size setting in SDS/DAS that would allow this speedo error to be corrected?
So it must be in one of the two axles. I'm still inclined to suspect the front axle, but I will "sound" each axle in turn to further narrow it down. I have inspected the rear diff and it looks good with no metal bits or signs of wear on the ring gear. I'm going to inspect the front next weekend (have to use a friend's lift).
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shochu
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Vehicle(s): indonesian-assembled '97 G300
Posts: 452
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
that's perseverance..  |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Well, I'm still at it. The suspension vibration has been banished through bushing replacement, but the drive train vibration is still there. I used a portable DSO and a home brewed magnetic vibration sensor to try and localize the source. From these measurements (see pics), it really seems that the front axle is where the vibration is originating. Note that when looking at the traces, the "vibration" is not the higher frequency sine wave, but rather, the "envelope" that results from the higher frequency sine wave being modulated by the actual, low frequency, vibration.
I have also observed that the drive train vibration does not occur immediately, but only after the truck has been drive several miles at speed, which suggests to me that something is heating up and allowing more "play" somewhere. In addition, the vibration is usually more severe during declaration than during cruise or acceleration.
The combination of all of these observations is making me suspect that there is a problem with the pinion bearings in the front differential. Is there a way to inspect/evaluate/test the pinion bearings without a total axle tear down?
Thanks,
- FD
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Front Axle.jpg (91KB - 0 downloads)
Rear Axle.jpg (84KB - 0 downloads)
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atg
Veteran
Date registered: Nov 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle(s): 2005 G55, 1985 300tdt
Posts: 129
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Sorry but did you run the truck up on a hoist and just listen to everything with a stethoscope with it in gear? |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Well, I think I've found it
The vibration is coming from the front of the transfer case. I over looked an key characteristic of both my vibration sensor and the mechanics stethoscope along the way and that started to lead me down the wrong path. The key characteristic is that they only sense vibration in the axis that is Normal to the point of contact. Lateral (in the X or Y direction) is not well sensed. When I attached the electronic sensor (using its magnetic base) to heads of the transfer case bolts which effectively allowed it to sense vibration only in the front-to-back direction. The same thing was happening with the stethoscope because I was "sensing" the transfer case in a nearly horizontal axis.
Once a realized my oversight, I checked the X, Y, and Z axises on the front and back of the transfer case and it was immediately apparent that the front of the transfer case is vibrating in the X-Y plane when the "vibration" occurs. To confirm my finding, I shaped a wooden block that allowed by to effectively restrict the movement of the front TC bushing and the "vibration" was suddenly many times more prominent. None of the other characteristics (speed, acceleration versus deceleration) changed, so I'm sure this is the point of origin.
So now the question is, what is causing the front end of the TC to vibrate? The X-Y plane mode seems to me to point to either a shaft that is out of balance or a shaft that is not running true to center (e.g., worn bearings).
As I think most of you know, I replaced the homekinetic shaft with a genuine MB one due to a bad rear CV joint which I originally though was the source of the vibration. But the shaft change did not improve the vibration issue. I noted MB no longer provides the "green dots" on the HK shafts to line up of the marks on the flanges. According to the technician I spoke with, a specific rotational orientation is not necessary - they new HK shafts should work in any position. Should I believe that? I have been thinking about rotating the HK shaft 180 degrees to see if things change. I would follow the same procedure that MB says to use for the drive shafts.
My other thought is that the the bearings on the input shaft of the TC were damaged by the bad CV joint - especially if the previous owner drove it that way for a while. This kind of fits with the observation that the vibration doesn't start until the truck has been driven a few miles. I'm not sure how to test/measure for this.
Sorry for the long winded post, but I wanted to get people's thoughts on it. Have I overlooked anything? Any suggestions?
Thanks!
- Scott
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I'll put my vote in with the "orientation of a new HK shaft doesn't matter. The rebuilt one that Vadim and I put into my G is very smooth and we paid no attention to orientation. I suppose there is a 1-in-36 chance the we put it in "right" by accident. As to the vibration. Have you checked the runout of the TC input shaft?
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
AlanMcR - 12/15/2014 1:46 AM
Have you checked the runout of the TC input shaft?
I would love to check the run out, but the documentation I have (or can find) only covers the old style 8-bolt flange and requires a "special tool" to check the run out. I suspect that measuring the new style also requires a special tool. I can't find a spec for the HK shaft flange run out either. If anyone has a spec/procedure that I can do, it would be very much appreciated. I have the dial gauges, mounts, etc.
BTW, does it matter which end of the HK shaft is the "front" and which is the "back"? The three ribs on the shaft itself are not in the center (although I think they are on the shorter 500GE HK shaft), so there may be an orientation, but I would doubt it.
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
The shaft is symmetrical.
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust- PM Sent. |
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