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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| TURBO FOR 300GD
Hi, I'm new to this group. After years searching for the right one, some 90 days ago I finally bought a 1986 300 GD in incredible condition. Only two owners since new, everything works fine. Checked engine compresion and all 5 cylinders are within original values. Everyone with some knowlwdge I talked to believes it is probably the best unit in Argentina.
I always thought that whenever I got my 300 I would add a turbo to it. I have done this before in a Nissan diesel pick up truck and in a Suzuki Jimny with great results. With careful use they gained a lot of power just for when it is needed and then I drive within the original values (Turbo boost to cero in the gas engine and EGT at original temp. in the diesel) and had no problems so far. (More than 100.000 miles on both)
To my surprise, everyone related to the 617 engine here seems to believe that the turbo addition should not be done. Some claim that the engine will not stand the extra stress, others point out that without changing valves, chambers and pistons little power will be gained, but so far nobody here attempted the convertion.
In the web I have seen that turbo kits for the 617 engine were sold by several companies in Europe until Mercedes started offering the turbo engine and it seems that they worked well.
On the other side I have seen some negative comments about them.
Can anyone share any experience (either positive or negative) about this? I would be interested in knowing what was the turbo boost in succesful experiences and what engine parts (besides the turbo addition) were replaced.
I know I could replace the whole engine with a 617a, but mine is in such good condition that I really don't feel comfortable with the idea of just scraping it and replacing it with other one from an unknown source.
Thanks anyone who helps.
Eduardo |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: TURBO FOR 300GD
Eduardo, I am in the same position. I have a very healthy stock motor in my truck. I am going to swap it out for a 617A instead of turboing the motor I have. The 617A has a number of features engineered to deal with the additional heat and stress of the turbo. Oil sprays directed at the bottom of the pistons, a special Camshaft and followers with carbide inserts, special piston faces, different injectors and injection specs, etc.. With the 617A the turbo will last the service life of the motor which, if cared for, should go 400,000 or so before freshening up and running another 400,000.
There are those in Europe who run SST turbo add on systems. There are those who report good service and those who have melted things. I think adding the turbo to our motor is asking for a shorter service life traded for more power and torque.
I have the 617A motor in a couple of TD's. They can be driven hard and put away wet without problems. We have Giant miles on these vehicles and the motors are bullettproof.
The G's you and I have will benefit from the extra performance of the turbo motor. It will need to have a larger diameter exhaust and minor small changes to use one. There can be interferance with the sump and the front diff. Look at the modifications Amzimmy made to the stock non turbo motor.
I want long term reliablility and no worries when I am on the power and using it hard on a hot summer day. I am going for the motor swap when I do it. This is my opinion based on what I do with my rig. I really want about 10 more horsepower. 88 is just a bit whimpy. I know what the motors in the TD's can do and I'm sure I would be happy with one in my truck. I hope you will get other opinions and some feedback from those running turbo kits.
Congratulations on your truck, fantastic no?
-Dai |
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Dai, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience with me.
I've been in love with th Gs ever since my boss bought a second hand 240 from our army in the early 80's.
At that time the price he paid was about a year of my income.
I have checked endless units ever since, but the rule was always the same: Whoever had one in good condition would not sell it for any reasonable price.
I could not believe my luck when I found this one. Paid for it about the same price than a brand new Toyota or Nissan, but the feeling of not depending on any of those electronic gadgets is just great.
This is why, now that I have it, my main concern is getting a little more performance (I travel a lot and most of my off roading is at extreme atltitude, sometimes over 15.000 feet, in the Andes) but without loosing any of the G's dependability.
The oil pan/front differential interference is the problem that I most fear about the engine swap. Besides that, I agree with you that it should be the way to go.
Thank you again.
Eduardo |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
I have experience of both 617a and STT, both are intercooled and installed in 460s both are still running well, alltho there have been problems on the turbo of the 617a, this was caused by a fracture in the oil feed pipe which has now been modified, the STT conversion was a factory approved conversion carried out in the UK by TB Turbos who later whent on to design thier own kit I am collecting a vehicle with such a kit in the near future and will report on it,s suitability. |
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VonEpp
W124 Host
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: Australia
Vehicle(s): w114, w124 & w460
Posts: 357
| Re: TURBO FOR 300GD
JMKOZ (founder of the Australian G-wagen Owners Asc. and frequent of these parts) has an aftermarket turbocharged 300GD. It seems his opinion is that it doesn't make that much more power than a manual 300GD.
For further options to my own 300GD I am booked in with one of my country's premier Diesel tuners to get the most out of my NA OM617 - I'll keep you posted.
An interesting option that I have open (and you may have considered) is replacing the AC compressor with a positive displacement supercharger. I currently have one here from a Toyota that is the perfect size. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: TURBO FOR 300GD
Eduardo, there are many G's running around with the 617A conversion in them. I suspect there are many solutions to the clearance between the sump and the top of the front diff. I saw one post that had a modified oil pan, and there has been info posted about moving the motor forward slightly. The Turbo pan has advantages over the stock G sump. The stock sump is all alloy and is of one piece construction. The turbo sump has an alloy upper and the pan bolts to the bottom and is made of steel. If it is damaged it is very easy to unbolt and repair or replace. It also has significantly higher oil capacity compared to the stock GD sump which is a good thing. The pan on the turbo could be easily modified to clear and probably still have greater oil reserve. Removing the stock sump from the motor while it is in the vehicle is no fun. It also has the Giant oil plug that was used in early MB diesels. Makes for exciting oil drains! The Turbo motor pan has the modern small plug that is removed with a 13mm end wrench. A much less dramatic and calm oil change to do.
Hopefully you will get some approaches to the problem discussed by people who have the turbo motor swap installed.
-Dai |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
In my opinion, if you really CAN discipline yourself to keep the EGTs at stock 300GD levels, then an add-on turbo is fine. To my knowledge, when aftermarket turbos have been deiscussed here before, keeping the boost and EGTs low after the swap has never been proposed. All of that is of course able to be done in settings on the injection pump, and able to be confirmed by watching an EGT gauge. Simple logic says that if your motor was built to run fine at sea level cylinder pressures, then adding back only enough boost to keep the cylnder pressures near sea level values when the truck is used at altitude, will not stress the engine in any manner it wasn't designed for. So if all you're trying to do is maintain sea level driveability at altitude, and can set the truck up for just that and no more, then I don't see any issue with using an aftermarket turbo arrangement. Simpler and probably easier to obtain in your part of the world than a full swap to 617A. We here in the USA are spoiled in having 617A engines relatively easy to obtain. In the rest of the world, other options can make more sense. I applaud you for your logical restraint in not trying to turn the GD into a rocket, but rather just help it do what it was meant to do under a wider range of conditions. Very nice. -Dave G. (who doesn't knwo how to describe his vehicle in the bio) |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
I must say, I am impressed by what Amzimmy in SA has done with his stock OM617. Instead of going the turbo route, you may want to talk with him to get some ideas. He has gained turbo-like power without a turbo. It may be a better route. Steve |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
sjtymko - 12/12/2006 9:32 AM .....I am impressed by what Amzimmy in SA has done with his stock OM617......turbo-like power without a turbo....... Long story short if I remember right, he ported the head and manifold and put the valve train from a 617.952 onto his head. That means higher lift cam as well as more durable carbide faced rockers. Now, what constitutes "turbo-like power", I'm not sure. I can only hope I get to drive Muffetta [sp?] one fine day and report back for myself! I also can't remember if he had to change pistons too in order to clear teh higher lifting valves or not....maybe he'll post. PS- Steve, I was settling up with Mark today, returning his manuals and a bunch of parts I'd borrowed, etc and when I mentioned I'd like to have a617.95x manual if he found he could still source them, he wandered around in his "library" and came back with one to give me! So I can probably get you some scans if you want. e-mail me. -Dave G. |
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Fenalaar
Elite Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Narvik, Norway
Vehicle(s): 2001 ML270CDI, Polaris 400L Big Boss
Posts: 826
| Re: TURBO FOR 300GD
You can add a turbo to the 617 engine, but the wear and tear on the engine will be higher than for a 617A, which has been adapted for turbo use. You can add a turbo without much problems if you keep your head cool and do not try to get too much power out of it.
The turbo by itself will not add much power. You have to give the engine more diesel too, so you will need to adjust the diesel pump. Only adding the turbo will clean up the exhaust considerably, though. I haven't gotten around to tuning the diesel pump, so I only get the "cleanliness" effect right now. There is never anything like the "diesel smell" around the car when idling and exhaust opacity is extremely low (0.14). That said, I haven't noticed birdsong and flowers coming out of the exhaust yet 
To get a turbo on a 617, you can get a manifold and turbo from a 617A car from a wrecker. Be sure to get the exhaust fittings to fith the exhaust pipe to the turbo as well. Fabricate a new exhaust system from 2 1/2" or 3" pipes. (The turbo will need bigger pipes than the non-turbo version to spool up quickly.)
To get away with a turbo on a 617, you should:
- Use only moderate boost
- Don't give it too much dieasel (i.e. don't tweak the pump too much)
- Add an intercooler
- Change oil often (Every 7000 km or so)
- Use only synthetic oil of good quality (Mobil 1 has been mentioned frequently on the Norwegian forum as the oil to use on a turbo 617 or 617A)
- Check oil levels frequently
- Let the turbo spool down gracefully after hard use - Don't just shut down the car when you get to your destination, but let it idle for a little while before shutting it down, so the turbo has oil pressure while cooling down
Johan-Kr
Edited by Fenalaar 12/12/2006 2:19 PM
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göran
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
I have without so much experience make this converting on my old 300GD -86. Follow the instruction and you make it over 1 or 1-1/2 day. Then you must leave the pump for new settings in a Bosch workshop. Everything you need it´s in the package like a new exhaust and all another stoff.
The problem is that company have no or only few of this complete kit left in stock. Here is the adress http://www.sttemtec.com/
Lots of this kit was sold in Sweden and Norway, but also in the rest of Europa its possible to find them. They was not cheap to buy but realy solid and good. The charge pressure was not to high so its hurts engine.
Important it´s engine in good condition and I did myself oil-change every 5000km like I did also now in my 290.
I drive with Castrol half syntetich oil with spec. MB 229.
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Amzimmy also had a set of header pipes made that had 5 tubes of even length into a collector and into a larger exhaust. He did go to different pistons, one size over I believe. I have seen the power/torque curves from the outcome of his result and it has huge torque. When they were here they said the only place they have used it where more power would have been nice was in sand dunes in the desert where they were both wishing for an AMG G  !!!
-Dai |
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amzimmy
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: South Africa/Italy
Vehicle(s): GD300 1981, Alfa GT 3,2 V6, Alfa Brera Q4 3,2 V6.
Posts: 850
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Hello, just had some busy time finishing off the year.........but eventually found some time to reply.
I have explained in detail the modification with picks and charts on a previous thread. Here it is:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=1689&pos...
As Dai and Dave have mentioned, the result from this modification keeping the engine as a "standard" aspirated, was quite astonishing and would really recommend.
About the torque, a great improovement, not to compaired with a "Turbo-Engine", the torque curve, as shown in the graphs, is a steady gradual curve against a steep progressive curve from a turbo assisted engine with a fairly short power band at a given RPM, against a longer and more spreaded powerband of the normal aspirated engine.
The draw-back on my G is the gearing, if the gearbox would be an automatic with the appropriate drive gearing, the truck would be definitively be faster and would be better in sand conditions (re Dai comments of my trip in Namibia) especially in sandy/desert conditions the manual gearbox is a detrament by the time you have picked up the speed for the necessary momentum, as soon as you press the cluch to change into higher gear you loose the gained momentum like if you hit a wall of water.
I opted more for mountain off-road condition, therefore the "Granny" gearbox, in normal driving I hardly put first gear in, in general I start in second there is plenty of torque to get going.
One final comment, what ever way you will go to modified normal aspirated or turbo assisted engine, you will not gain SPEED, only POWER. To gain Speed you must change you drive gear ratio......THAT's a complete different SCIENCE!
Hope to have given a positive contribution.
Best of luck, amzimmy 
Edited by amzimmy 12/13/2006 2:59 AM
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Thank you all for the contributions.
In the meantime since I posted my initial question I emailed STT and they answered they don't carry the 300 kit anymore. Only spare parts for existing kits or complete kits for 290. So this road to more power is forever closed.
A friend of mine is adapting a 602, 6 cylinder engine to his 86 G. It is almost ready and initial tests showed some oil presure problems but apparently not due to the engine swap but some bearing problem already in the engine when purchased.
I must say I am very impressed with amzimmy's results to the extent that I think I will seriously explore that posibility. My only concern with it is how would it compare with a simylar power turbo engine at high altitude in the Andes (my main offroading destination).
The loss of power in NA engines (both gas and diesel) at over 4000 meters high is terrible. This was my main reason to what I did in my two other vehicles. In the Suzuki Jimny (gas engine) I run a mild 6 psi boost which I very seldom use at sea level, but I let it go up about 1,5 psi for every 1000 meters of altitude I gain.
I also have an Isuzu pick up truck in which I added all the parts and tunning to make it be like a Trooper engine. Since it is quite lighter than the Trooper it is a really good climber.
Anyway, amzimmy, if you can comment on any high altitude climbing that you have done with your engine, I'll be very grateful.
One of my main concerns with swaping in a 617a engine is that it seems to be the most usual way to go. Call me stubborn if you like, but I never liked to go along with the crowd, but to try something different and at 54 I'm too old to change that.
Thanks again everyone for sharing your experiences with me.
Eduardo |
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amzimmy
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: South Africa/Italy
Vehicle(s): GD300 1981, Alfa GT 3,2 V6, Alfa Brera Q4 3,2 V6.
Posts: 850
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Edoardo,
Your worries about the 4000 m altitude is certainly of concern! Our montain roads are at a average by 3000-3200 m in Lesotho, the altitude with my set-up has never been a problem especially with the low "Granny" gear ratio. However, I understand the problem, I wanted to increase this "high altitude" power loss my self and I have found the solution! A MB mechanical compressor! There is a big drawback, that's engine wear and tear, yor engine is not designed for such high power and in the long run it will give up!
My tought are as follow. Do I really travel these mountain roads often? Do I need "speed"? Do I ever race up these mountain slopes? Well, to all these questions my answer was....NO! Therfore I will save myself some big $$$ and doodle along enjoying the VIEW
By all means look into the latest Compressors, they work well, reliable and are easy to install, but expensive (maybe less if you get a second-hand). I have made to believe that you don't need to change any set-up or pistons, compression etc to the normally aspirated engine and above all you will have good power be at sea level or at 4000m altitude. However, I would consult with a good tune-up mechanic......if there is such rare animal? 
The Suzie (Suzuki) saga I understand, we took a Suzie along to Lesotho on the Letele pass (3200m), good ground clearance, nippy and agile but........no power. We nicknamed it "The SuzieTrailer!". We hooked it to the G and she followed hopping and jumping all the way up the pass! No sweat for the G!
Best of luck, hasta luego, amzimmy
Edited by amzimmy 12/14/2006 6:10 AM
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
Dear amzimmy:
Looks like you and I share about the same concerns. Fortunately (for me) you have several years of accumulated experience with your G and since you are kind enough to share it I can benefit from it.
As I said in my former entry, I am a little reluctant to do away with my 617 engine in great condition so I am seriously interested in following your steps.
The G is my 8th off road vehicle and I think that the main reason why I always wanted to have one of these early models was bullet proof dependability. If I wanted speed or performance either one of my other 2 vehicles give me that. What a 120 HP turbo Jimny can do is really incredible, but one day just cruising around with my girlfriend we forded a shallow river, some water made its way to one computer sensor and that was it!.
Down here there are several places where you don´t see anything human for many days and relying on those little electronic gadgets does not make you feel comfortable.
Now, going to the details of what you did, I have two questions:
A) How did you arange a double Y exhaust manifold with 5 cilynders. From the photos I think you put the front 3 together and the back 2 on the other branch. Am I right?
B) Why did you choose this setup instead of a 5 to 1 one. For low end torque or for clearance reasons?
C) Did you change your pistons to the next size to gain a few cubic centimetres or just because your engine was worn out and this was a need?
Besides this, all you report is very clear and besides having some technical knowledge myself, I am lucky enough to have an excellent mechanic who has taken care of most of the few 300´s in this Country since new.
Thank you again for your help.
Eduardo
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amzimmy
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: South Africa/Italy
Vehicle(s): GD300 1981, Alfa GT 3,2 V6, Alfa Brera Q4 3,2 V6.
Posts: 850
| RE: TURBO FOR 300GD
emlmcb - 12/13/2006 4:53 PM
A) How did you arange a double Y exhaust manifold with 5 cilynders. From the photos I think you put the front 3 together and the back 2 on the other branch. Am I right?
That is correct, the three in front go into one and the two rear into one then both again into one.
B) Why did you choose this setup instead of a 5 to 1 one. For low end torque or for clearance reasons?
Just for clearance and heat dispersion, (the man that did it wanted to make a "perfect" set up, but that ment pipes and insulation all over the place) for the torque we lengthened the exhaust system U-shaped with the silencer under the door-well and out in front of the rear wheel.
C) Did you change your pistons to the next size to gain a few cubic centimetres or just because your engine was worn out and this was a need?
The piston have been changed due to the old warn engine , now it is a true 3 lt engine!
Besides this, all you report is very clear and besides having some technical knowledge myself, I am lucky enough to have an excellent mechanic who has taken care of most of the few 300´s in this Country since new.
Thank you again for your help.
Eduardo
Dear Edoardo, your'e welcom to any question that you may have , if I can answer these, I will, if not, there will be someone that has an answer.
Have a good one, hasta luego,
amzimmy
Edited by amzimmy 12/14/2006 1:08 PM
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