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| ESP...Saving Lives! Here is an article on this: http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/09/iihs_esc/index.html NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - A new study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety indicates that crash deaths on American roads could be reduced by one third if all vehicles were equipped with the Electronic Stability Control. Woohooo...to MBUSA G's!  Edited by Thai 6/13/2006 12:23 PM | ||
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754  | ||
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | RE: ESP...Saving Lives! the only problem i have with the logic that these drivers are already dumb, is that it's like saying it's not worth spending more money on education (instead of prisons) because they're already dumb. Putting people in jail is not an effective solution to ending crime. It treats the sympton not the problem. And as i've said elsewhere, i had a chance to drive a Z4 recently and it was great fun. I could drive around at full throttle all the time becuase i was "safe". I know there are a number of instances where these systems promote more agressive driving so when to we educate? For howeever many people it saves, i'd argue it's killed a couple too. I think if we had any sincere interst in educating drivers we'd have less deaths than ESC could prevent... but i trust we'll never go that way so i can rest in knowing noone can ever really prove me wrong!  In norway you don't get your license until you've proved you can drive on ice. Yeah, i've thought about moving there but the g-wagens are too expensive! | |
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| RE: ESP...Saving Lives! Here is my response to your response elsewhere: Ewalberg, with your logic, then aren't airbags as dangerous too?? I mean...airbags make people not wear their seatbelts. Thus, it must be a weapon, right? How about ABS?? This will only encourage people to brake late. Before ABS, people use to brake from a mile away. Now, with ABS, people wait till the last minute to brake! Damn, those tailgaters!! Therefore, ABS must be a "weapon"! Whether a Corvette or Ferrari has the system or not, most drivers of these cars will drive faster than a guy in a Camry, right? The fact that these systems are on these cars is a benefit to everyone, not just the driver. These systems will help control the aggressive drivers from overdoing it and save the attention-deficit drivers. For me, despite having ESP, i do not drive any different. However, i appreciate that i have something to watch me in case.........something happens. FACTS. These are facts. These systems have been proven worldwide to save lives...yes, even in Norway i am sure. As for "education," what if there is no ice in Texas or Florida? Do you fly millions of people up to Chicago to do their driver's test??  What works in one small country does not work in others. And even then, the best "testers" are succeptible to poor driving decisions or lack of concentration at some point.Edited by Thai 6/13/2006 9:30 PM | ||
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | RE: ESP...Saving Lives! I never disagreed with you that ESP saves lives. Did you miss that part? I guess you're right, education doesn't seem to work in this country... it only works in countries that make it a priority. In the relatively near future the US will have an absolute majority of black men in prison. Maybe they're just dumb and we should accept it and be glad for the prisons to keep us "safe"...  ...but i prefer to think there's a problem with the system. Treating the symptoms without a plan for addressing the problem is wasteful and insulting. Bad drivers shouldn't be allowed to drive... maybe if we put them in prison they'd want to learn! Airbags will blind people that may have otherwise survived an accident unharmed, but they will definitely save far an away more people than they hurt. Same reason we have a welfare system. Some people are going to abuse the system (the down side), but for the greater good we have a system to take care of people who hit hard times. Now before you say i said airbags are all bad, go back and re-read the 2nd part of the first sentence in this paragraph. I think cars should be tested with and without airbags (even if standard equipment) so the buyer has the data available to see how strong the vehicles structure is relative to others for extrapolating what might happen in a high speed crash. You posted an interesting article a while back and it showed how airbags can mask the variation in vehicle design.... which is great for crashes that are at the speeds and of a nature like the crash test, but potentially dire for high speed accidents. Facts and features are fantastic but if you don't interpret and question them you're at the mercy of the people feeding them to you. Open wide! OKay... wait a minute... if you don't think ESP can encourage bad driving then how about "4-wheel drive" or "all-wheel drive". The San Francisco bay area has millions of people who pile into the Siearra Nevada to go skiing and it's obvious that people driving "all-wheel drive" with traction control and who knows what else think they have more control than they do. They're shitty drivers driving cars with shitty highway tires and they're SURE they have control. They're sold on marketing bull$hit... and on snow and ice, esp isn't gonna help them much if they're already going to fast! I have to drive at rediculous hours to avoid all the drivers who have "all wheel drive with Traction control and stability control" and who without fail get stuck and cause accidents. Meanwhile on the same road with my nice tires and open differentials and full time 4-wheel drive i can handle 50mph speeds with confidence. Drives me crazy! Darnit, this was supposed to be a 2 line response... darn you thai! | |
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| Fenalaar Elite Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: Narvik, Norway Vehicle(s): 2001 ML270CDI, Polaris 400L Big Boss Posts: 826  | Re: ESP...Saving Lives! ESP is useful in other circumstances than on snow and ice as well. On dirt roads, the ESP can be invaluable in preventing rollovers and when pulling heavy trailers, it can prevent the trailer from jack knifing on you. Harald has a piece on ESP here: http://www.4x4abc.com/esc-esp.html Oh, since I'm in Norway, I can elaborate a bit on the slippery road driving course. The course is compulsory, and is intended to give new drivers a taste of what driving on really poor roads entails. However, there isn't any exam you have to pass afterwards (on driving on ice, that is). Also, having a course on this will not pass onto you any measure of good or even common sense... That said, one should never blame safety systems from the faults of the driver. Blaming the air bags for the failure of the driver to wear seat belts is stupid, because the air bags doesn't decide not to wear the seat belts - the driver does. I feel that ESP should be available on cars, since even the best of us can suffer from a momentary lapse of reason and go slightly too fast in a turn. Also, ESP (and ABS and other TLAs) really comes into its own under emergency manouvers. When you have to do an emergency turn to avoid another car coming into your own lane, thinking won't be much less of a factor. Most of us are going to act on reflexes, which may or may not be the correct way to act. Also, road conditions will never be entirely constant - what if someone has spilled oil in a turn and you don't see it until it's too late ? Black ice is almost impossible to see, and can be present on an otherwise clear road, if there's a part of the road that's in the shadows. Unfortunately, trying to educate people on safe driving seems to be a hopeless task. Stupidity seems to be a dominant trait  My driving school instructor used to say that one normally need around 4 years of driving to become a good driver. He also said that some people only learns one year four times over - that is they don't gain experience... One other thing - SUVs are very prone to fatal rollover accidents, and even though good sense would prevent many of these accidents, trusting in other peoples good sense may not be a smart thing to do  Johan-Kr | |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | ||
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| RE: ESP...Saving Lives! The idea of airbags blinding people is ancient history with the newer airbags. I have not heard of anyone actually being harmed from airbags for a long long time other than skin burns from explosives. In fact, my partner at work suffered a head-on collision in his old Mustang at 45 mph a while back. He was going straight lawfully when a car going in the opposite direction on the other lane decided to turn left (two lane road). He said that it happened so quickly that he had no chance to do anything. The airbags blew instantly. The next thing he remembered was that his eye glasses were broken on the floor and he could smell gun powder. He had some burns on his hands where he was griping the steering wheel. He got out of the car unharmed...just body aches. His car's front nose was demolished. The car was totaled instantly. You keep on posting BS about airbags failing at higher speeds...do you have ANY PROOF at all to what you're saying??!! Do you have any real horror stories about airbags killing people at high speeds??!! Quite frankly, i would rather have airbags at ANY speed than not. I would assume that IIHS or other independent crash testing institutes across the world would have picked up on your theory by now!  You never answered my ABS question above?? Do you think that it's a weapon too?? For sure, ABS has cause a few deaths from stupidity. But, should we take that away from people too?? Your last paragraph...do you think that if ESP was not available that these bad drivers would stay off the road or drive any different?!! Are you saying that Nevada skiing resorts were bankrupt before the invention of ESP because bad drivers (apparently many in your story) stayed home?! Are you saying that these icy conditions did not result in accidents before ESP came to market because bad drivers did not drive the road or that they were more careful?? Erik, you do these sort of analysis for a living, right? You gotta see that your arguments hold no water. They are full of leaks. You have absolutely no facts to back up anything...and yet you still argue! Even the Norway member wholeheartedly disagreed with you! It's OK that your G does not have ESP...there is no reason to put it down because you don't have it. Life is too short. I don't have side-curtain airbags...but i wish that i did. I certainly won't be saying anything bad about them. And stop with this paranoia thinking..."don't trust anyone"...you sound like that guy in X-Files. How about this...on your G, why don't you take out your airbags and ABS module. I am sure that this can be done easily. Your family will appreciate your efforts i am sure.  Edited by Thai 6/14/2006 7:52 AM | ||
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754 | RE: ESP...Saving Lives! Thai, You would just LOVE the car I just bought. It has no airbags, no ABS, certainly no stability control, four wheel manual drum brakes and a 485hp V8 just to make things interesting, oh and I almost forgot, nothing more than lap belts for restraint.  I've gone retro I do run radial tires though, for safety you know  I'm with Erik, I think esp allows people to think they are safe. It lulls them into further lack of judgement on the road. | |
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| Johann Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: Centurion, South Africa Vehicle(s): 1999 LWB 290GDT 1981 SWB 240GD+ Cabrio 2015 G63 Posts: 259  | ||
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| amzimmy Elite Veteran Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: South Africa/Italy Vehicle(s): GD300 1981, Alfa GT 3,2 V6, Alfa Brera Q4 3,2 V6. Posts: 850 | RE: ESP...Saving Lives! All of the ESP ECS ASB ARSetc etc etc......... is it telling us that we can rely on electronics? Besides the G I have the new Alfa GT and the Alfa Brera that I really love to drive, the cars are fitted with all the necessary and useful ASB ESP ESC ARS etc etc etc, my main problem is if on wet slippery road or at a diesel spill or simply in emergency breake, I CAN breake within a short distance (actually tested at an advanced driving course) but can the driver behind me breake in the same way? For instance, I try to drive with caution and leave enough space in between me and the vehicle in front to allow a more gentle breake, never mind the ASB ESP ESC ARS etc...... that is just a bonus! amzimmy  | |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: ESP...Saving Lives! Thai, i don't mean to be agressive, but you are one of the worst persons at missing the point that i've ever interacted with. It's bizarre. So i maintain that there are instances where you need to be able to apply throttle to recover a vehicle or get it pointed the way you want heading into trouble (so it should be a choice for drivers). The fastest way to get around a turn is often in a controlled slide. If you head into a turn with a speed that requires a controlled slide you tell me how ESP is gonna fix it. It's not. It's going to help you maintain the control of the vehicle, but you're driving off the road. i also maintain that marketing such as "all-wheel drive" even without ESP or any other additional features results in irresponsible driving even though it saves lots of lives. It makes some bad drivers drive faster in good weather and it makes bad drivers not slow down in bad weather. Does that mean you shouldn't have it in your car? No. As a side note, at one point (i don't know if it still is, maybe it's better now) part of BMW's driving class was an excersize that showed how in certain situations, you the driver who they've trained can systematically outperform ABS at being able to make a decreasing radius turn under hard breaking. I'm going to say it one more time despite the fact that you selectively listen to what-ever you want to think, but i don't have a fundamental issue with these sytems. I think they should be choices with off switches. If the systems are 99% perfect do rallye cars use it? Here's why ABS should have an off switch. I agree from experience. http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html And with safety utmost in mind, i'm not going into the details of why locking the center diff is an inappropriate solution to turn off ABS but the short answer is becuase locking any differential gaurantees at least one wheel is slipping in a turn. Is it generally a fine and valid solution? Yes. Is it the safest? Not necessarily. I'm not answering any of your other questions intentionally becuase you intertpret me so wrong that it would be an endless cycle of me making a statement and you making bizarre out of context conclusions... which it has already become. I have in my life been accused of ill applying someones line of logic, but you take the cake. Maybe it takes one to know one? Congratulations on the ESP in your car, you are basically safer for it. I'm gonna go do some donuts in the parking lot... if i crash i'll need some...  There may be a day when the systems are so sohpisticated that they should always be on. But not today. Now... engine Rev limiters... that feature should always be on. | |
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| Re: ESP...Saving Lives! ABS can be bad off-road. No doubt. But, are we talking about on-road safety or off-road?? Well, in my off-roading (and i do this often enough), i have not had any ill effects of locking the center diff. Maybe because i don't go fast over off-road terrain...i am a chickenshit. And IF i am going that fast in a corner off-road, i don't lock the center diff...i leave ESP on. I am not into rally racing. Are you? What will ESP do in a fast corner?? It will cut down the engine power. It will brake the appropriate wheel(s). You will lose some momentum. Then you make a smooth turn. No need to "powerslide". ESP is not there to enhance your rally driving skills! ESP is not about racing either. Stop using bogus examples of rally racing or track racing to prove your point. ESP is about common day driving. And BTW, BMW school teaches the fundamentals of driving with DSC (= ESP) on and off...i owned a M3 two years ago. They also teach how to use ABS correctly. It's part of the car...there's no need to teach people how to use a car without ABS because it doesn't exist anymore! Newer ABS systems have ELECTRONIC BRAKEFORCE DISTRIBUTION (EBD). EBD allows more even brake wear in a straight line, but also appropriately brake individual wheels in a corner to prevent a slide when braking. This ABS concept was championed by Mercedes and BMW many years ago. BMW calls it CBC (cornering brake control). You're a bit outdated with your info. Anything else for me to debunk? And when will you take airbags and ABS out of your car??  You can surely brake better by pumping your leg than ABS, right?? You surely don't want airbags blowing in your face at high speeds, do you??Edited by Thai 6/16/2006 12:18 AM | ||
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | ||
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| Re: ESP...Saving Lives! ewalberg - 6/16/2006 12:02 PM never mind. your logic is undeniable. Remember to take pics of your steering wheel after you remove the airbags.Edited by Thai 6/16/2006 1:29 PM | ||
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