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617A engine swap progress - Part 2
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Posted 11/6/2006 5:26 PM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
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617A engine swap progress - Part 2

This is a continuation of Hipine's engine swap thread for anyone who wants to continue the followup.

DUTCH - Moderator
#52045
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Posted 11/6/2006 5:29 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Thanks boss!

-DG

#52046 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/6/2006 6:26 PM
EuroTruck
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oakwood, Georgia - USA
Vehicle(s): 2012 Audi A4 Avant S-Line, 2015 Ridley NOAH SL
Posts: 518
500
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Dutch,

 

A link in your last post on the old thread to the new thread will help folks in the future to more easily navigate to the second of the two part saga.

 

Good work Dave! Mmmm, mmmm, mmmm..........I love the smell of diesel in the morning.

 

-Sean P.

#52053 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/7/2006 10:15 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
One funny bit

In all fairness, I'm sure hoping this thread has run it's course.  I wish it would have been much shorter!  But there was one funny story from the second install that proves that a month away from the G is too long.

I had gotten everything installed and had buttoned things up from the under side with all the transmission conections made.  I went into the cab to try the shifter and make sure it got all gears (this is a 4 speed trans).

1....okay, 2.....okay, 3....okay, 4......okay, reverse......what the????

the lever won't push down to engage reverse......what in the heck is causing this?   There's free play in the lever, but it seems to only be in the upward direction....crawl underneath, re-check linkage, all seems okay, all levers move from underneath......What the heck is keeping that lever from going down?......Pull up and SNICK, right over into Reverse it goes.......Oh yeah.....you pull up to get reverse, not push down...... 

I guess some little remnant of driving Q's Audi was still stuck in my head wanting to push down to get reverse.

I'll take problems like that any time....  :)  

The drive home yesterday was great.  The 4000 ft climb from Denver up to home was accomplished all in top gear.  That's something I never had a prayer of doing in any 280.  Now granted, the foot was to the floor a good bit of the time, and right at the top of the longest constant grade (about 7-8 miles) where it steepens up to 8% I was down to doing 50 mph (speed limit is 55).  But that's actually normal for a lot of new cars on that grade, so I didn't feel too bad.  And my 280 was dropping to 40-45 at that same point in THIRD gear.

The exhaust work that my local guy did on the head pipe is absolutely a thing of beauty.  That pipe looks like it was made that way from the factory.  No interference anywhere, but tucked in nicely above and to the right of the front driveshaft, with zero chance of interference.  And he added a nice hanger bracket to handle the weight of the exhaust pipes and keep the weight on the turbo to a minimum with a nice little flex piece between the turbo and the hanger.  Perfect. 

On the way in today it seemed to run even better.  I need to run the diesel purge through it and change fuel filters again.  Then I'll make an appointment with Mark for early next week for him to tweak it just right.  I haven't really filled the tank to check fuel economy yet.  I figure I'll wait 'till Mark gives me the thumbs up that it's running really right before I start calculating fuel consumption.

Thanks again for everyone's help and support!

-Dave G.

#52147 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/7/2006 10:39 AM
dai
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
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RE: One funny bit

Great news Dave. These motors are remarkable and can handle being driven very hard. They also respond to very exact valve adjustment. I use tight settings with the motor stone cold and check them making sure that a one thousandth thinner feeler gauge is loose in there. I'm glad the performance is impressing you. I imagine you will get something like 18 to 20 mpg. Look forward to further reports. Well Done!

-Dai
#52155 - in reply to #52147
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Posted 11/7/2006 10:57 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: One funny bit

Looking forward to hearing how AMZ and the missus are enjoying their trip.  Have him find time to post when they make it to your place (this AM right?).

-Dave G.

#52161 - in reply to #52155
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Posted 11/7/2006 12:41 PM
GDog

Date registered: Dec 1899
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RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

What's next? Veggie conversion?
#52186 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/7/2006 1:08 PM
roughneck
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
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RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Great job well done Dave, my 617A convert is on a 5 spd getrag at the moment I do feel that a 4 spd would have been better considering that I generaly use it for towing and is rarely in 5th, given that I have both a 4spd box and a auto box on the shelf with all the changers etc etc, what direction would you go in or are you happy with what you have done.
Your opinion would be valued.

Edited by roughneck 11/7/2006 1:09 PM
#52191 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/7/2006 3:34 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
617A tranny choice

Look at http://4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html

I'm considering the (1) G1/17-4, (2) G1/18-5/4.7, and (3) G1/18-5/6.15.

(1) is installed now (2 and 3 are on a boat on their way to me) and I'd like a slightly higher 3rd gear as well as an overdrive if I could get it, but the reverse gear on this one is nice for backing even up hills, where your speed can't get into the boost.

(2) gets me the overdrive I want above, but at the expense of a higher reverse gear, and negligible improvement of the 3rd gear ratio.

(3) gets me a wonderfully low reverse gear, and what looks like it might be a nice ratio in the cog below 1:1 (4th in this box), but still no overdrive.

In bench racing mode it looks like option (3) might be best, even if it limits me to 60-65 mph on the highways.  But I'll be able to better comment after trying them out.

I don't know about the auto boxes as I've never driven them and don't plan to in my use for the G.  Maybe others can chime in on the auto box.

Keep in mind that my use includes a lot of hilly driving at altitude.  A whole different set of driveability concerns would likely come into play if the G was used exclusively on relatively flat land at low elevations.

-Dave G.

#52208 - in reply to #52191
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Posted 11/7/2006 3:40 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
617A on veggie?

GDog - 11/7/2006 10:41 AM What's next? Veggie conversion? :biggrin:

My lovely bride, bless her heart, asked the same question last evening.  I had to say that first of all, with the recent wrench-fest, I won't care if I don't TOUCH tools till spring! (I know I won't be THAT lucky).  But yes, I would like to be able to run veggie oil and will probably add that capability some time.  As to how to implement the PROCUREMENT of the actual veggie oil, I'm not sure I have time in my life for the whole waste fryer thing.  But I might find it in me to cut my fuel costs a little by taking delivery of a carbouy of rapseed oil once in a while or something.   I don't know.  That's all a ways off.....unless Diesel goes to $5 a gallon.

-Dave G.

#52209 - in reply to #52186
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Posted 11/7/2006 4:37 PM
roughneck
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
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RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

It's allready $10 a gollon here Dave, so start stocking up on rape oil.
PS at least our gallons are bigger than yours,
#52220 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/8/2006 2:09 PM
Loki Laufeyjarson



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
500
RE: 617A tranny choice

hipine - 11/7/2006 7:34 PM
I'm considering the (1) G1/17-4, (2) G1/18-5/4.7, and (3) G1/18-5/6.15.


Good work Dave!


As you allready know, having top gear 1:1 + small tires, is quite low top gear for higway driving with 617A.
This granny low gearbox is however great for offroading and reversing in tight spots with the ultra low ist. and reverse gears.


If you plan to kep the small tires and drive long distances on highways, -I recomend you to take the overdrive box.
I admit you have a remarkable route between work and home with over a kilometer vertical distance and I fully understand that you want to trim your gearing for the "home run".

(3) G1/18-5/6.15.........
(I know you are fond of narrow tires that dig throug slush and wet snow.... -are there any skinny 35" out there ........

Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson 11/8/2006 2:10 PM
#52399 - in reply to #52208
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Posted 11/8/2006 2:59 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: 617A tranny choice

You bring up a great point, Loki.  If I got a larger tire that was nearly equal to the difference between 5th and 4th in the /6.15 box it would have a similar effect to getting the overdrive in the /4.7 box.  The nice thing about tire sizes is that they come in many more small increments of difference than do gears.  And they're a lot easier to change...although not any cheaper!

I'll have to do some playing around with the revs per mile numbers of some different tires besides the BFG Comm-Trac 235/85s I'm running now.  Thanks for bringing the idea up again.  Maybe the key to trimming out the gearing just right is the tire choice.

-Dave G.

#52406 - in reply to #52399
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Posted 11/8/2006 6:09 PM
dai
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
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RE: One funny bit/another LR sighting

AMZ and sweetie just left for the Banzai run back to SLC. A wonderful visit with a lot of laughter. They loved the visit with you all, the Southwest and San Francisco. We are incredibly wet here at the farm but had a break in the storm for a walk. I have a feeling they will be back soon.

A good resource for SVO related heaters and filters etc. is Plantdrive.com. We bought SteveSmiths's TD that is set up with Plantdrive components. The turbo d runs great on Straight Vegitable Oil. This setup would make it possible to run Biodiesel B99 full time in colder climates I would think. Quieter, smoother running too.

-Dai
#52442 - in reply to #52161
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Posted 11/9/2006 10:14 AM
mb230s

Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SWFL
Vehicle(s): G-less for now, vintage MBs, FJ40
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Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

I'd try the tires. Seems obvious, but often over looked. With your new-found torque you should be able to spin them just fine.
#52542 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 12:15 PM
Ducks

Date registered: Dec 1899
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RE: One funny bit/another LR sighting

dai - 11/8/2006 3:09 PM A good resource for SVO related heaters and filters etc. is Plantdrive.com. We bought SteveSmiths's TD that is set up with Plantdrive components. The turbo d runs great on Straight Vegitable Oil. This setup would make it possible to run Biodiesel B99 full time in colder climates I would think. Quieter, smoother running too. -Dai

Is that the single tank system that lets you also run biodiesel or is it the two tank system?

Chad

#52552 - in reply to #52442
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Posted 11/9/2006 12:17 PM
BenzDieselTuner

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 617A on veggie?

hipine - 11/7/2006 3:40 PM

GDog - 11/7/2006 10:41 AM What's next? Veggie conversion? :biggrin:

My lovely bride, bless her heart, asked the same question last evening.  I had to say that first of all, with the recent wrench-fest, I won't care if I don't TOUCH tools till spring! (I know I won't be THAT lucky).  But yes, I would like to be able to run veggie oil and will probably add that capability some time.  As to how to implement the PROCUREMENT of the actual veggie oil, I'm not sure I have time in my life for the whole waste fryer thing.  But I might find it in me to cut my fuel costs a little by taking delivery of a carbouy of rapseed oil once in a while or something.   I don't know.  That's all a ways off.....unless Diesel goes to $5 a gallon.

-Dave G.



our work car (arbeits auto), a 1991 Opel Kadett 1,7l Diesel Kombi runs great every summer on pure Raps Oel, and takes BioDiesel in the wintertime.........she purrs along, and smells great!

how many liters is a carbouy of raps oel??????
#52553 - in reply to #52209
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Posted 11/9/2006 2:33 PM
stevegsmith
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Date registered: Apr 2006
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RE: One funny bit/another LR sighting

Ducks - 11/9/2006 9:15 AM

Is that the single tank system that lets you also run biodiesel or is it the two tank system?

Chad




Either or. A conversion, single or two tank, only adds capability. The word "conversion" is misleading in that way. Biodiesel requires no conversion but will congeal in cold weather.

Steve
#52573 - in reply to #52552
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Posted 11/9/2006 3:37 PM
Ducks

Date registered: Dec 1899
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RE: One funny bit/another LR sighting

stevegsmith - 11/9/2006 11:33 AM
Ducks - 11/9/2006 9:15 AM
Is that the single tank system that lets you also run biodiesel or is it the two tank system?
Chad
Either or. A conversion, single or two tank, only adds capability. The word "conversion" is misleading in that way. Biodiesel requires no conversion but will congeal in cold weather. Steve

Sorry, I realize now I didn't exactly phrase my question right.  I'm rambling a bit off-topic for this thread I guess but what I wanted to know is how well a single-tank system works in Oregon.  If I remember correct, I read that you can't use SVO below freezing with a single-tank system.  But then you just use diesel or biodiesel?  I guess I was just wondering how well it works out in actual practice.  Do you end up mainly use SVO or diesel during the winter?

Maybe the heaters even help with the performance of diesel fuel in really cold climates?

(I guess the question is related to this thread as food for thought on an SVO conversion in Colorado )

Chad

#52589 - in reply to #52573
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Posted 11/9/2006 3:52 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Telling tales on the 617A (instrumentation)

I finally got after the finishing touches on my gauges last night.  I just needed to hook up power to the converters, wire up the pyrometer, and tap in to the boost line.  Wow there's some interesting information here.

1 - Oil temp. - I can see that the temperature sensitive valve that opens up flow to the oil cooler is opening at 170F and closing at 140F.  Oil temp osciliates slowly between those levels, but never above or below (so far....it's cool outside).

2 - Exhaust gas temp - WOW, not being a diesel guy I never dreamed that gauge would fly around as much as it does.  Going downhill with light throttle, 400F, Full throttle, full boost, full load topping a long grade, it's creeping up to 1400.  Comes up pretty quick to 1200 and creeps up slowly from there while on a long grade as long as full throttle is maintained.  Any let off of throttle brings the temps back down pretty quick.

3- Boost - Looks like my waste gate is functioning by the book.  Boost jumps up quick enough and tops out at 11 psi where the book says it should.

4 - Oil pressure - another WOW, quite a bit of variation in this one with RPM and a much higher peak than I thought.  I think I need a different gauge and sender.  Actually, starting up from cold gives a pressure spike that sometimes shuts the gauge down for a few minutes.  Once the engine is warm it's running between 70 PSI and top of the gauge (80+) under cruising revs.  With the motor hot it drops to 20 psi at idle.  Again, I'm not familiar with what this motor is supposed to do, but it's unusual to me to watch that oil pressure gauge drop down and back up by half the scale each time I shift.

5 - Water temp - Interesting one here too.  The factory gauge response seems surprisingly non-linear.  Needle coming off the peg is about 130F.  Top of the white is about 160 F, first line is about 180F, but the whole center portion of the gauge is crossed back and forth while the Isspro gauge hovers between 180 and 195.  Water temp on the Isspro gauge is MORE stable than the factory gauge was making me think.  The two sensors are right beside each other in the first and second plugs in the left side of the head.

I also did a fuel filter change and ran a can of Diesel Purge through it yesterday evening.  Now I thnk everything is ready for Mark to work his mojo on it tomorrow.

This morning I also dropped by the hydraulics shop that made my cooler line for me to have the turbo feed line fabbed.  These guys had a nice one-piece, crimp-in banjo fitting so no worries about a joint to fail at the banjo.  I'll pick that up this afternoon and maybe fit it this weekend.  One less thing to wonder when it's going to fail.

Others' experiences and thoughts on any of the above greatly appreciated.

All the best,

-Dave G.

#52593 - in reply to #52045
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