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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| 320 (M104) into 460
I finally got my G back this weekend with the M104 motor in. Was a 230 GE that was then turbao charged. The 320 is absolutely unbelievable. Oodles of power and torque. And very very smooth. I am very happy with the conversion although I need to still make amendments to the ems.
The G has gone in for its roll cage and racing seat installation in preperation for the Australian Outback Challenge next year. Once it is done pictures will follow. |
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hus55
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: north cyprus,lapta.
Vehicle(s): 300GDS, G300 LONG,300GDT CLK55 AMG CAB.
Posts: 2230
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
sounds good!
did you have trouble with the length of the engine in comparison to the g/box and prop shaft? |
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
The gearbox had to shift back and the shaft between it and the Transfer case was shortened. |
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nugat
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Vehicle(s): 280GE, 290GD, c303
Posts: 876
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
what are the basic differences/gains in power, torque, fuel consumption?
Was it auto box and how the TC witholds bigger torque? |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
Peter,
which transmission did you attach it to? Any issues? |
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hus55
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: north cyprus,lapta.
Vehicle(s): 300GDS, G300 LONG,300GDT CLK55 AMG CAB.
Posts: 2230
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
i wouldnt be suprised if the original g/box wasnt a 4 speed manual(like mine)
i have been told its better than the 5-speed in terms strength. |
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
It bolted straight on to my Getrag 5 speed. The car has only done around 2000km (1243miles) since the swap so it is maybe a bit soon to say if there are any issues. Certainly are none yet. I intend to do some hard mileage to iron out any problems before the truck is shipped to Australia for the Challenge end of Feb next year.
I understand that an auto box would be better at soaking up some of the stress the new engine will exert on the drivetrain, but for now I am sticking with the manual as it suits my driving style. This may have to change.
I am getting 100kw at the rear wheels with 31 inch tyres on at the moment but my engine management system is not finessed yet and I believe I may get at least another 10 to 20 kw once the cam advance and the butterfly in the intake manifold are connected.
I have been reading all the tyre size vs diff ratio arguments on this forum with much interest as I will be putting 35 inch tyres on and am anxious about the front CV joints and whether they will hold up. I realise I also need to pay special attention to bearings as well. Does anyone here have sage advice about this?
All my Toyota and Land Rover buddies (competitors) are all waiting for something to go wrong so they can say "I told you so". They have not had much ammunition yet, especially as some of them got beaten with the 230 motor in. They are all running big V8's (LS1s, etc) in their trucks with major drive train modifications to hold the power. I am trying to box clever-have less weight and thus more useable power. it is quite a tricky recipe as more learned people on this forum will attest. I hope I will get the formula right. So far I think I am on the right track. The M104 is great and it sounds absolutely fantastic.
I took one of our most respected local off road drivers on a little test run and he had a grin from ear to ear. I will keep you all posted.
Pete
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
nugat - 6/4/2007 8:34 AM
what are the basic differences/gains in power, torque, fuel consumption?
Was it auto box and how the TC witholds bigger torque?
Sorry Nugat did not answer all your questions...
101.7kW 279 Nm
Fuel consumption is around 5km per litre but that is an unrealistic figure at the moment (erratic driving). I do not expect it to get much better. It is a manual box and both he box and TC are standard as per the 460 230GE. I am told that the TC can hold the torque as it is within spec. Thanks. Pete |
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nugat
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Vehicle(s): 280GE, 290GD, c303
Posts: 876
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
petesherlock - 6/4/2007 8:45 AM
nugat - 6/4/2007 8:34 AM
what are the basic differences/gains in power, torque, fuel consumption?
Was it auto box and how the TC witholds bigger torque?
Sorry Nugat did not answer all your questions...
101.7kW 279 Nm
Fuel consumption is around 5km per litre but that is an unrealistic figure at the moment (erratic driving ). I do not expect it to get much better. It is a manual box and both he box and TC are standard as per the 460 230GE. I am told that the TC can hold the torque as it is within spec. Thanks. Pete
I think I read somwhere the TC can stand up tp 270Nm. Anybody can confirm? |
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Fernando BR
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
Hi,
This model works with 460/463...Hope you do not have problems , but this may be a solution.
Designation
Model
GL 76/33 K-5
717.436
manual - 5
4.905
2.716
1.817
1.261
1.0
by Getrag, installed in
460, 461, 463.(from 4x4abc)
I like this strong first ratio. And i think it will be ok between with M104 and 460 VG 80
Edited by boewick 6/5/2007 5:48 AM
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the user name
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
that's nice man.
is it possible to put into a 300ge 1994? and do I have to some modification just you do?
what kind of modification you've done when doing the conversion?
ok guys, i would like to know shift back the gearbox and shortening shaft between gearbox and t-case. is it ok? or is there will be a problem for the future. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
Pete,
the 35" tires will make you lose 15 kw. The gears - you know!
CV joints will be fine. Keep them healthy by avoiding hard (all the way to the stop) left or right under power.
I would not wait how the bearings hold up. With a competition in mind I would replace them shortly before.
Also, I would not enter a competition, like the one you want to participate in, with a Getrag. Automatic or bust. |
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
Pete,
Well done - Did you eventually get a G sump? Are you using aftermarket fuel injection? Would like to come around and see it some time
Peter |
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 2:35 PM
Pete,
the 35" tires will make you lose 15 kw. The gears - you know!
I guess that your old 460 has 4,88 R/P ratio. You deffinetely dont want lower diffs for the 320 engine in combination with 35" tires, having 5:1 first gear and 1:1 top gear. That is the same gearing as the weaker 230 engine in combination with the older overdrive Getrag gearbox (3,8:1 first gear and 0,8:1 top gear) and 28" tires. The 15 KW "loss of power" in the gears is a lot of heat. Harald must clarify where that frying is taking place... 
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 2:35 PM
Also, I would not enter a competition, like the one you want to participate in, with a Getrag. Automatic or bust.
I dont know anything about this gearbox but it is the older overdrive Getrag GL 275 717.420 that has got the bad reputation. Not for "breaking under load" but for shortened life span of bearings.
I have a feeling that the gearbox and TC will not brake down under that powerful engine but you will gess less lifetime out of bearings. So it is more a question of preventive maintainance.
Good luck,
Loki
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
petermerle - 6/5/2007 6:23 AM
Pete,
Well done - Did you eventually get a G sump? Are you using aftermarket fuel injection? Would like to come around and see it some time
Peter
Vlad was kind enough to help me with the sump but getting it through our customs is another story altogether. We would need a few hours and a good bottle of whiskey for that.
I have fitted a Wolf engine management system. Main reason for this is that it is an Australian product and so support will not be a problem in Oz. i am off to Europe and the Canne for the Commercials film festival and will be back later this month. I will contact you then and you must come for a drive. |
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 4:35 AM
Pete,
the 35" tires will make you lose 15 kw. The gears - you know!
CV joints will be fine. Keep them healthy by avoiding hard (all the way to the stop) left or right under power.
I would not wait how the bearings hold up. With a competition in mind I would replace them shortly before.
Also, I would not enter a competition, like the one you want to participate in, with a Getrag. Automatic or bust.
Thanks for the info Harald. I do plan to redo the front axles, even though they were done about 10000km ago. I will do that as one of my last vehicle preps before shipping so they are nice and "fresh".
We have some extensive training runs before the Outback, including the 2000km non stop Dungbeetle Adventure Raid. Hopefully any gearbox issues will rear its ugly head just after one of these training runs (actually a fantastic race limited to about 10 vehicles and is really a south African offroad version of the Cannonball Run).
I will keep you posted and thanks for the info. |
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petesherlock
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Vehicle(s): 290GDT, Pinzgauer 710, 404 Unimog, SIIA Landy
Posts: 106
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
Loki Laufeyjarson - 6/5/2007 8:31 AM
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 2:35 PM
I guess that your old 460 has 4,88 R/P ratio. You deffinetely dont want lower diffs for the 320 engine in combination with 35" tires, having 5:1 first gear and 1:1 top gear. That is the same gearing as the weaker 230 engine in combination with the older overdrive Getrag gearbox (3,8:1 first gear and 0,8:1 top gear ) and 28" tires. The 15 KW "loss of power" in the gears is a lot of heat. Harald must clarify where that frying is taking place...
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 2:35 PM
Also, I would not enter a competition, like the one you want to participate in, with a Getrag. Automatic or bust.
I dont know anything about this gearbox but it is the older overdrive Getrag GL 275 717.420 that has got the bad reputation. Not for "breaking under load" but for shortened life span of bearings.
I have a feeling that the gearbox and TC will not brake down under that powerful engine but you will gess less lifetime out of bearings. So it is more a question of preventive maintainance.
Good luck,
Loki
Thanks for the help Loki. My gearbox is part number 717420 20 003127 so it seems that I am not in the lucky department here. Any way I will post the results from the field as it it were. Thanks again
Edited by petesherlock 6/5/2007 3:20 PM
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: 320 (M104) into 460
Loki,
Pete stated that he is getting 100 kw out of his new engine (with 31" tires mounted) - if he goes to 35" tires he will lose 15% = 15 kw |
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G wizz
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Uk
Vehicle(s): Dont own a G anymore, Too expensive!!!!
Posts: 686
| Re: 320 (M104) into 460
your up against some big trucks in the aussie outback challange,my friend has not long come back from the Morrocan outback challenge, like Harald say's you wont have to worry about the Cv,s just avoid having front lockers in on full lock, thats the bit they dont lik, but having said that, that rule only applies if you got a big V8 in it like mine, that 320 will be fine, seen quite a few in 460's is france, good for raid's
good luck and kick some butt. |
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| New or old Getrag?
4x4abc - 6/5/2007 8:08 PM
Loki,
Pete stated that he is getting 100 kw out of his new engine (with 31" tires mounted) - if he goes to 35" tires he will lose 15% = 15 kw
Harald,
With that kind of calculations he will get 200KW by shifting into low range!
Tiresize and gearing is not affecting engine power, but it affects "torque to ground" in a given gear at a given speed (Power = tourqe X RPM). The G has 10 different gears and is driven in varying terrain at varying engine speed and throttle.
Pete,
I you stated first that you have the younger version Getrag gearbox with low first gear and top gear = 1:1. That is good gearing for 35" tires in combination with 4,88 diffs. But you state now that you have the older overdrive Getrag gearbox with the extremely high 1st gear. I know from experience that this to high gearing for both 230GE and 280GE with 35" tires and 4,88 diffs. You are better off with any other gearbox than this one.
Loki
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