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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Hello All,
I have a 2003 G500 with 70K on it that needs an alternator. I was getting the intermittent "Alternator Failure / Undervoltage turn off all consumers" red warning in my dash for about a week or so now. Being generally mechanically inclined and have replaced a number of alternators before, I figured tackling the W463 wouldn't be that big of a deal. I called up the various local auto parts stores, including the local MB Parts/Service dealership and inquired about a replacement. I reviewed the *official* MB documentation on removal and installation of the alternator and confirmed that the battery was only showing 10-11 volts when the truck was running, and with the lights on or other "consumers" it was seemingly slowly decreasing on the volt meter. The dealership was out of their mind at $700.00 so I laughed at them and hung up. The remaining Auto Parts stores, Napa, AutoZone, Sanel, etc. all had Bosch 150Amp Reman'd units for a fair price. However upon purchasing one and then examining it against the stock one to come out of the truck I noticed the regulator clocking on the back side of the new one(s) to be different. The Bosch part number on the unit I removed from the truck is :
0 124 615 020
The unit that all of the auto parts dealers seem to have - including online is :
0 124 615 047
Which I am being told is the "new" part number for the above "020".
The only difference I can see between what was in the truck and what I can buy is how the regulator is positioned on the back of the alternator. The "sensor plug" is actually closer in relation to one of the supporting bolt ears then is the one I took out of the truck, so much so that when you mount it into the truck, this sensor plug is bound up against the frame of the truck to the point where I would think its going to either break or wear and rub to the point of failure. I called Bosch and discussed it with them and the gentleman said they would need to escalate it to product support as he could see the difference but was not aware of the potential fitment problem.
Can anyone provide any help with understanding this better or has anyone come across this problem before? The "020" series sensor plug is easily accessible from the passenger side undercarriage area, and you can easily unplug and plug it in. However this newer "047" design is definitely not and seems to be to be a real danger. I do not want to install this "newer" model alternator for fear of future electrical disaster and thats someplace I do not want to go with this vehicle...
Thanks in advance for any information.
-=Don |
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W5YK
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: San Diego
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, Unimog U2450,
Posts: 543
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
There was a recall on that alternator, so presumably Mercredes should give you one for free. They gave me one, and put in in. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Hi Don,
Welcome to our forum. Please go into your My Profile (upper left side of the page) and complete the sections to tell us the year and model of your G, as well as where you're located. That info will help us to help you better. Thanks.
DUTCH
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Dutch, I updated the profile. Not sure what other information you may be looking for.
2003 G500 Black
70K Miles - no warranty.
Located in NH, USA
I believe I am the second owner - truck orginally came from Florida/Texas locale.
No modifications besides removal of as much chrome as possible. 
Thanks for any help in advance. If there is a recall, does anyone have the specs on that recall? I don't know if I would be eligible for that since the warranty is obviously well expired at this point.
-=Don
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Update :
I have pulled the battery and had it tested. Not only does that test ok so does the stock alternator which I had tested at two locations. With the new Bosch Reman'd Alternator in the truck, I am able to get to the rear post and test it. I am seeing 11.8v - 12.0v across all areas that I can get a volt meter on. When I test the Bosch alternator post, its showing 11.8v as does the "+" and "-" ground posts up near the windshield - drivers side - as does the battery. The charge is the same everywhere on the vehicle, however it continues to deplete slowly if I throw on the rear defrost, heated seats, etc. The voltage on all of the above areas dips and continues to almost equally.
Is there some sensor, fuse, relay that "enables" the alternator to not only charge the battery, but also tell the computer that it IS charging ok? I continue to get the "Alternator/Battery - Visit Workshop" message. In addition, I get the "Turn all Consumers Off" message too. To me it seems like something is not allowing the alternator to charge the system as it should. I am beginning to think that the battery and the alternator were fine and there is something else causing this problem.
As a final note, the numbers on the new Bosch Reman which I confirmed with Bosch are :
0 124 615 047
Whereas the stock alternator number was :
0 124 615 020
Bosch told me that the "020" was replaced with the "047" even though this does not fit correctly IMHO into the vehicle. I do believe the sensor plug(two prong), which is the fitment problem I am referring to in my orignal post, is plugged in, albeit its bound up tightly against the frame/related assembly - still concerns me, but I am confident this problem is not the alternator after all of this testing, unless I missing something.
Thanks in advance for any help or other suggestions. Thanks.
-=Don |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
The voltage regulator on the alternator is the thing that's supposed to control the charge voltage. The body computer just creates a message based on the system voltage. Your symptoms of the system voltage dropping when loads are applied indicate that either the VR is not responding properly to the system voltage it's sensing, or else it's not properly sensing the voltage.
I'm sorry I'm not familiar enough with the 463 wiring to tell you exactly how to do it, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be setting things up with those loads drawing the voltage down, and then try to disconnect or otherwise "fool" the VR into getting no signal and see if the alternator output voltage goes up. I look toward the voltage sensing because your alternator/regulator seemed to function properly in the testing your local parts shops performed. This is of course assuming that testing included variable loading and proper response of the VR.
-Dave G. |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Dave,
Thanks for the tip. When you say "disconnect or fool the VR", what exaclty do you mean or how do you suggest I do that? There is no easy way to do this from the rear of the alternator when its installed, I have attempted to trace the wires back but they seemingly go to to the rear of the engine bay and then down into a hellish hole that I can't see anything easily. I have considered disconnecting the battery while the truck is running, but while I have done this with older vehicles, I am hesitant to do such things to this rig due to the enormous amount of electronics in it for fear of really causing serious damage. Thoughts? Or was that what you were suggesting while adding up the loads, i.e. seats, defrost, fans, lights, etc.
-=Don |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Can anyone help with 463 voltage regulator diagnostics?
Definitely don't disconnect the battery while it's running.
Is there anything in the WIS about testing the voltage regulator?
Can you tell where the "sensing" wire to the voltage regulator goes? Though I have to admit, a bad connection on that wire would be lots more likely to cause over charging than under charging.
I'm sorry I can't be of more help but I've never owned a 463 and stuff I would to to this old tractor I have could probably damage your electronics so I can't really suggest anything. Maybe some of the 463 owners will bite on my new subject line.
Good luck!
-Dave G. |
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
fade2blk - 11/30/2008 10:59 AM
Update :
I have pulled the battery and had it tested. Not only does that test ok so does the stock alternator which I had tested at two locations. With the new Bosch Reman'd Alternator in the truck, I am able to get to the rear post and test it. I am seeing 11.8v - 12.0v across all areas that I can get a volt meter on. When I test the Bosch alternator post, its showing 11.8v as does the "+" and "-" ground posts up near the windshield - drivers side - as does the battery. The charge is the same everywhere on the vehicle, however it continues to deplete slowly if I throw on the rear defrost, heated seats, etc. The voltage on all of the above areas dips and continues to almost equally.
Is there some sensor, fuse, relay that "enables" the alternator to not only charge the battery, but also tell the computer that it IS charging ok? I continue to get the "Alternator/Battery - Visit Workshop" message. In addition, I get the "Turn all Consumers Off" message too. To me it seems like something is not allowing the alternator to charge the system as it should. I am beginning to think that the battery and the alternator were fine and there is something else causing this problem.
As a final note, the numbers on the new Bosch Reman which I confirmed with Bosch are :
0 124 615 047
Whereas the stock alternator number was :
0 124 615 020
Bosch told me that the "020" was replaced with the "047" even though this does not fit correctly IMHO into the vehicle. I do believe the sensor plug(two prong), which is the fitment problem I am referring to in my orignal post, is plugged in, albeit its bound up tightly against the frame/related assembly - still concerns me, but I am confident this problem is not the alternator after all of this testing, unless I missing something.
Thanks in advance for any help or other suggestions. Thanks.
-=Don
Don,
most likely you have a bad VR which is part of your alternator/bolted to the rear of it - you should see a voltage of 13 to 14V when the engine is running and around 12V when turned off.
You can replace the VR by itself - I still have not found the correct replacement unit for my friends spare alternator......
The onboard computer just sees the low voltage and brings up the error message in the display.
Karl |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| RE: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Warranty or not, I believe a recall is a recall. It applies to vehicles for their life. I'd start by checking into this and hopefully have it replaced on MB's coin. Steve |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Thank you both. Karl, that's what I figured should be happening as far as the voltage. Hard to believe(well, maybe not since this has all happened to anyone who has worked with alternators before!), its possible that I have two bad alternators(or two bad VR's) - the original one and the reman'd one. I guess my concern is if you take it somewhere and they "test" it and it says they are ok, what am I to believe then? Because that is the situation that I am in now. I'll attempt to work with the shop that provided the reman'd one.
Thank you all for the assistance!
-=Don |
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michel bertin
Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: SFO Bay Area, CA
Vehicle(s): '02 G500, '14 G550
Posts: 124
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem
Don - I confirm that Mercedes has a note on the "brushbox" (VR) for the alternator on those years (around 2001-2003) because it had a problem on several of their models. I actually had both the one on my 2002 G and the one on my 2001 C240 fail and replaced under warranty within 6 months from each other. I cannot say whether it is a formal recall though.
Michel |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED!!!
Hello all, thank you again for assistance for those that responded. It has been a hell of time getting this resolved, but in the end I learned a lot and some very important lessons learned! I have included some photos for your viewing pleasure and hopefully any G500/G55 owner may also learn something as well - or at least - BUYER BEWARE - All is not what it seems!
Turns out I started running the 0 123 615 020 Stock OEM Bosch number on Google. What came up was Wagner Alternators product catalog in California. I figured after talking to countless people, it wouldn't hurt to call these guys since they seemed to have every Bosch component for this alternator listed. Turns out they are the mass distributer for Bosch components and feed most of the reman facilities - for Bosch alternators as well as FoMoCo and others. I finally found someone who could help me and not think I was crazy.
As you can see below, the alternator on the right is the stock OEM unit as installed in my G500 for 2003. The unit on the left is the reman'd unit that is SUPPOSED to be the replacement for a G500/G55 2003(and many other years, I forget what the run is, but I thought it was at least up to 2005/2006). In any case, its obvious while the output and configuration seems to be the same, they are not "clocked" in the same way. Wagner, like many other shops, could not beleve this, that was until I sent him about 50 pics of my stock unit along with pics of the voltage regulator(VR) disassembled for him to cross a ton of numbers. After a couple of days of review and submitting pics of the new reman'd unit and the stock unit, Wagner told me I had found a glitch in the Bosch system. It seems like most, if not all cross references to the stock alternator numbers for the G500/G55 were WRONG - obviously. The gentleman on the phone told me the inventory and cataloging for this unit would need to be updated since every auto parts store I went into had the same WRONG photo of the WRONG alternator come up on the system, every shop displayed the part numbers and the units clocked like the one in the photo on the left.
The correct clocking is only part of the problem. In addition, if you look VERY closely at the sensor plug recepticle, you can see small guides inside which accept the male sensor plug when you connect it, well those are WRONG as well - which means the VR is just wrong too, at least from a application standpoint. The guides on the reman unit are a few millimeters off to one side, but obviously enough to not allow the sensor plug to connect correctly! So in addition to the clocking being wrong, which when installed into a G500/G55 will crush the sensor plug into the frame of the truck, the sensor plug will not fit correctly anyway. All of this is hard to tell when you are bent deep head over into the engine bay of a G changing these. I did it three times across the span of two weeks and have it down to about 30 minutes to change one! LOL.
Wagner told me that while the clocking orientation is also not cataloged correctly, the VR is wrong as well which accounts for the incorrect sensor plug guides. While I have no idea what MB dealerships do in this situation, this must be a known issue or it will be soon enough for a number of people as alternators begin to go bad. Based on all the symptoms, the technical director at Wagner suggested that he simply sends me the *new* updated VR for my original unit. He was also able to locate and confirm that MB did replace the VR's due to issues, but they replaced it with the correct unit obviously.
If anyone needs a new VR, below is the correct and updated VR for your truck. Whatever you do, don't believe anything they tell you anywhere else! Take it from me! While I wanted to put a completely newly rebuilt unit into the truck, replacing the VR was all I needed and that fixed the problem, messages gone and I confirmed charging of 14-15V at the posts and the battery. All is good! Hooray!
Believe it or not, calling Bosch was no help at all. All they did was give me their Re-man'd numbers and confirm that there was a "newer" updated unit for the G. While there was a newer updated unit, their clocking was wrong and their cross reference on the VR's was wrong. Wagner informed they will be speaking to product support at Bosch to straighten this out.
Here is some information that I hope can help someone in the future and save you a lot of time. I now have a local alternator/generator repair shop recommended by Wagner to handle a full rebuild if and when I need it, at least then I know I will get the same unit back with the correct clocking and parts. Since the rest of the unit seemed ok, for now I just replaced the VR. With Wnter coming on here in NH, I need the G, and I couldnt be down another week as the snow is starting to fly, otherwise I would have simply got the whole think personally rebuilt by the shop.
MB G500/G55 Stock OEM Alternator Information : 2001-2006(needs confirmation)
Bosch 150AMP / 0 124 615 020
Voltage Regulator(VR) : F 00M 145 340
Updated Bosch Information :
Bosch 150AMP / 0 124 615 047 (If you order this and its an entire reman'd unit, you may get one thats clocked wrong)
Voltage Regulator(VR) : F 00M 145 382 (If you just order this, you should be fine)
The critical part about all of this is that if you took the above numbers to a shop and asked for the "047" model, you may just get the unit on the left that you see in the picture below. Wagner surmised that they felt I may not be able to "find" the EXACT same reman and clocking that is required. So again, not sure what the MB Dealers are doing. Wagner confirmed that these alternators are easy to clock, so their thought was MB may be clocking the units when they come in as there is no record or indication of the "047" unit being clocked correctly anywhere.
Hope this helps anyone out there. If your interested in contacting Wagner Alternators in California, you can reach them at the information below. Its pretty simple to call them and get some amazing help from some VERY knowledgeable people. I worked with "Rick" and he was great.
Wagner Alternator
http://www.wagneralt.com/
Telephone: (800)345-5927 (Ask for Rick in Technical Support)
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED!!!
Great findings, well done my friend! 
Now I'll able to finish the alternator I have laying on the toolbox........
Karl |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED - Photo Post!!!
Here are the photos I was referring to, but resized - sorry about that Dutch, I didn't realize they were going to be that big! My apologies... 
-Don
 (G500-Alternator.jpg)
 (G500-Old VR.jpg)
 (G500 New Bosch VR.jpg)
 (G500 New Bosch VR - Wagner Part Number.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 G500-Alternator.jpg (641KB - 5 downloads)
G500-Old VR.jpg (518KB - 5 downloads)
G500 New Bosch VR.jpg (648KB - 3 downloads)
G500 New Bosch VR - Wagner Part Number.jpg (600KB - 3 downloads)
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED - Photo Post!!!
Interesting pictures. I can't comment on the plug without pix of both from the same angle. But as far as the problem with the plug on the VR hitting the vehicle chassis, it looks to me like just a matter of the whole rear housing (not just the VR) being clocked 90 degrees different between the two units. I'd have thought removing the 4 phillips screws that hold the front and rear housings together and rotating the rear housing of the new one to match the old would have solved the issue with the connector meeting the vehicle chassis.
But glad you got through it anyway and shared info that might help others in the future. That's what the forum is for. Nice work.
-Dave G. |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED - Photo Post!!!
Dave,
I have some more photo's that can really show the sensor plug differences. I'll post them so you can see, they are definitely different. I would have never noticed it(its very subtle) if the gentleman from Wagner didn't point out the fact that they should be different based on the numbers I was reading off to him on the reman'd VR itself on the reman'd alternator. What made it even more frustrating was that if you didn't have both units out and analyzing the inside of those plugs with a flashlight you wouldn't even notice it on a quick glance. In addition, when you dropped the new reman unit in and attempt to snap the plug on it generally went on "all the way" - however it really wasn't engaged all the way and hard to tell when working over the bay like that - course the 20 degree(F) weather didn't help on the fingers either!
Yes, an option was to "clock" the whole casing, but Wagner recommended that if I wanted to do that I take it to a shop to do. A local auto parts shop would not do it, I would need to take it to a alternator rebuild shop. However, further concern was that the VR numbers off the reman were not correct either(VR and sensor plug guides were wrong), so I was concerned even with clocking the supposed correct reman would ultimately turn into more frustration and Wagner guaranteed that the VR they were sending me would work and will resolve my problem, which it did...hooray!
I'll post the very close sensor plug pics and you will see the "guide" differentiation.
Thanks again for your help along the way!
-Don |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED - Photo Post!!!
So it looks like you put a new VR onto your old alternator, and we still don't have a for-sure Bosch replacement alternator that works without re-clocking. If someone needs a new alternator (entire assembly) it looks like choices are still either buy MB, or buy the .47 number you mention, as well as the replacement VR, fit the replacement VR to the new alternator, and re-clock the housings of the new alternator before fitting. Is that a fair summary?
-Dave G. |
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fade2blk
Member
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Swanzey, NH
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 22
| Re: 2003 W463-G500 Bosch Reman'd Alternator/Regulator Position Problem - FIXED - Photo Post!!!
Dave,
At the moment, that's what it looks like because Wagner is telling me that until they get part numbers, inventory and catalogs corrected, and speak to Bosch about the issue you may be at risk of always getting the wrong one. Wagner recommends just taking your stock alternator to a official alternator repair shop(If you call them they will give you a local reference for USA at least-Wagner supplied of course! ) and request a total rebuild. In that case you will get a new Alternator housing(possibly), all the internals such as bearings, brushes, VR, etc and the shop will maintain your clocking and you'll have a like new unit - which will also be generally guaranteed to work and tested by a reputable shop whose sole business is alternators, generators, starters and the like.
I would really like to take to a MB Dealer - one that wont look at me like I have four heads - and ask them what they do. It "seems" like a dealer only uses *new* units so maybe when a new one is ordered it comes clocked correctly and with the correct VR - no idea and sometimes the poor attitude received by service departments is not worth the effort.
I'll e-mail Wagner and ask them what they think as far as your inquiry and see if they have a suggestion. Its quite possible they publish a new reference number, etc. and that what you will need to ask for.
-=Don
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Clocked?
For a dummy, what does "clocked" mean? |
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