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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Agree with Dai, the job requires patience but it is best to do it
right. I like to do it with the wheel mounted and center cap off.
Keep adjusting until there is barely perceptible play in wheel
by shaking top to bottom. After next long drive or after heavy
breaking, when everything is hot, lift each wheel and check
play, this will give you the real life clearance of the bearings.
Ideal would bee 0 preload, 0 play, imposible to achieve but
the closer the better.
Cheers Warren |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Brilliant Warren. Again a great technique born out of years of professional experience. Thanks for that idea. It is really difficult to get things right with a dial indicator and I double checked it a couple of times to make fine adjustments after driving it. That involved pulling the wheel off etc. Your cut to the chase method will get it right quickly. The difference between barely perceptible play and no play (testing the wheel) is a very small tightening of that inner nut. A couple of degrees tighter, or a minute or two on the second hand of the clock to hit the spot.
Excellent method, and a clear explanation.
Warren, what do you like to use as the torque value for the outer locknut? The specification in the manual is insanely high and will probably cause breakage of the claw wrench or parts of hands. 
Cheers mate,
-Dai
Edited by dai 9/23/2006 12:36 AM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Jason, the best mechanic at Europa International, gave me the following instructions:
1.) While turning the hub, tighten the inner nut by hand using the claw socket without the breaker handle.
2.) Back the inner nut 1/8 turn.
3.) Place the lock washer.
4.) Install and torque the outer nut to spec (200Nm?).
5.) Bend the lock washer tab(s) into the slots of the outer nut.
6.) Replace the center cap.
This is not too far off from Warren's also easily followed instructions.
I used to use the races from the old bearings (ground open or down slightly to allow easy removal) as tools to tap the new bearings in place. You can hear a very distinct sound difference from the hammer when they are properly seated.
To properly seat the seals, I used a small piece of prefinished hardwood flooring as a "flat" across the seal to tap it into place. When it was flush with the metal surface, it was in its proper place.
I did this job far too many times on my 280GE before Jason told how to do it. Never had to do it again.
(The hardest part of this job was to remove the bolts holding the brake caliper.) |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Yes, the 200Nm loch nut torque is very high, I adjusted the bearing play on the inner nut within 1/16 turn, then tightened the torque in steps from 140 Nm, 160, 180 Nm (while someone rotated the wheel) and upwards until I had no play, then I finally adjusted the lock nut to fit the loch washer. With this procedure the torque is set with small dynamic forces on the bearing. Whether the torque is 160 Nm or 180 Nm when you're finished, doesn't matter, there is no play and the lock washer fit in its place.
I used Warren's method, wheel mounted, center cap off, I grabbed the wheel and pull-pressed hard while checking for play.
Edited by 460332 9/24/2006 3:08 PM
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| More expert testimony required...
Got the right side re-assembled and a little parmanent boss on the caliper is just touching on the rotor... which means the rotor is sticking out just a bit too far... maybe 0.2 inches. Assuming the rotor is fitted properly to the hub, is there anything but the relationship between the hub, outer bearing, and knuckle that can contribute to this? Essentially a bearing fit issue or an race not properly seated? just checking... |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Erik,
sounds like your bearings are not seated properly. Did you use the small set screw to attach the rotor to the hub? Nothing stuck in between? |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
small set screw was applied and there didn't seem to be any interference. I'll probably complete the right side and double triple check everything as trouble shooting before i tear open the left side again. Hate to dig in there till i know what to look for.
Also, i realize i can pull the hub without the nuckle or kin pins for disassemblies sake, but if i have to re-seat a bearing or something can i just pull it and not worry about mixing greases and getting things where they don't belong? or do i need to pull the rotors and king pins to do it all proper like. On re-assembling the left side it seemed cleanest to put the hub into the knuckle to contain the wheel bearing grease, then slide that assemblu over the CV shaft and into the into the axle. then fill swivel with grease.
thanks ahead of time...
Edited by ewalberg 10/2/2006 7:29 PM
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fourbyfourclub
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Vehicle(s): 300G
Posts: 302
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Hello Erik!
I posted before to check the gap on your caliper Did you read it?
My next and most important question: where did you bought your bearing set and who is the manufacturer? |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
The gap is not equal, no calipers required to figure that out. Although i'll get a measurement tonight if that helps. I checked to see if you sent a fax for instructions but didn't receive it. E-mail also works fine. I did not receive instructions set, but i have seen it done and noticed that everybody does it a little differently and i've yet to see any instructions which really answer all quesions, so i would definitely like to see your instructions too... i'll PM you my e-mail.
That said the contact is minimal enough that i drove with it like this. The bearings tightened normally and everything rode fine but i get some scraping on the rotor, and they were not loose when i checked after the drive, which included some good braking and turning.
I bought the bearings through Sean, I got the NTN Japan Bearings because I specifically requested them. They have an extra roller. Do you have the NTN in stock or know if there is a fundamental problem with them? If you have that bearing in stock can you take a picture of the inner race of the outer bearing? The only difference i can find between my new NTN and old German is that the German bearing has "/Q" after the part number, and although both have measurable radius on the inner race the size is larger on the german bearing.
I brought the races to a shop to have them pressed in and i didn't check if they're fully seated with a feeler gage... which i plan to do this time.
Back to my question, do you have an opinion on being able to pull the hub alone to check how the bearings are seated without mixing greases or getting grease in the worng places?
Edited by ewalberg 10/2/2006 9:39 PM
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fourbyfourclub
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Vehicle(s): 300G
Posts: 302
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Hello again Erik!
I know you upset , but I don't think you did something wrong with your installation you got great installation instructions from Warren, DUTCH and Dai, and I'm 100% agree with these instructions.
It is not a problem if you have a one roller more in your bearings,
There are two types of bearings : bearings that fit by size and diameter and bearings for W463 Mercedes G-Class.
Take a look on a picture: Bearing on a left has the same diameter, size a and other parameters as an original W463 bearing
Bearing on a right is a bearing designed for W463 front axel .
Just only one difference is a groove on an inner side of original W463 bearing. (arrow)
W463 hub design (next picture) not allow you to press regular bearing all way in. You will always have a gap about 1.5 mm between the hub and inner bearing race.
That small gap is enough to move front hub away from the center line and create the problem you have right now.
Fortunately, you did just one side and probably have your old bearing and new one on you hands.
So, my next question is: Do you have an inner groove as pictured on your new bearing?
 (W463Bearing2.jpg)
 (W463Bearing1.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 W463Bearing2.jpg (14KB - 4 downloads)
W463Bearing1.jpg (11KB - 5 downloads)
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
It's less an issue of mixing grease (not a big deal) than of what you'll do when that hub is out. It's okay to pull just the hub to check the bearing on the hub, but if the outer race in the swivel housing needs to be seated better, then you have to pull the housing as it's not recommended to apply the force to seat the outer race when you'd be applying it against the swivel pin bearings. Comprende? -Dave G. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Erik,
you can pull the hub after taking off the slotted nuts - fit might be tight though since everyting is new. No danger of mixing any greases.
We had an issue with 460 bearings a few years back during our service workshop at my house. Dai would have details and pictures. Basically the outer bearing comes in two different shapes: KLM503349A and KLM503349. Without the "A" it will fit some but not all hubs. If KLM503349A is needed and KLM503349 is used, the hub will stick out a fraction of an inch - and then of course the rotors will have clearance issues.
Whether we have the problem at hand on your 463 only a close inspection would tell.
Was the "Q" suffix on the outer bearing?
Edit: looks like Vladimir had already picturtes up while I was still typing - I was looking for those images, but could not find them in my huge collection. But essentially Vladimir is telling the same story - G hubs need very specific bearings. However, since they were coming from Sean I can not imagine that he sent you the wrong ones.
Edited by 4x4abc 10/2/2006 11:11 PM
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Looks to me like the 463 has even a different bearing seat area then the one we discovered with Tom's truck. On the 460's there are differences in the hubs, some have a radius at the inner bearing seat area and some do not. Tom had bearings that didn't have the correct inner radius and they did not seat all the way. We got him going by swapping out bearings sets between us. I bet Vlad and Harald are correct, they are not seated and it may be that the bearings are not correct.
-Dai |
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EuroTruck
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oakwood, Georgia - USA
Vehicle(s): 2012 Audi A4 Avant S-Line, 2015 Ridley NOAH SL
Posts: 518
| Re: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
4x4abc - 10/2/2006 11:04 PM However, since they were coming from Sean I can not imagine that he sent you the wrong ones. What can I say, I screwed the pooch on this one.
I knew nothing of the difference in the bearings and the extra machined groove on the inner race that is required to properly mount the bearing on the hub. I ass-u-me-d that a 32010X and an 32011X would be the same across all manufacturers, so I took the numbers from the MB bearings and had my bearing supplier cross them to the NTN numbers. That was my first mistake. The second mistake I made was that I did not verify the possibility of there being bearing differences with the collective group, here at P3. It seems as though some here have already found this out the hard way as well. When I comes to G-Wagens, a bearing is not always a bearing. :-) On the bright side, hopefully this thread will reach the next enthusiast wanting to revive his G's front axle and he'll avoid making the same stupid mistake that I did. My apologies to Mr. Walberg for delaying his project and causing undue stress. Humbly submitted, -Sean P.
Edited by EuroTruck 10/3/2006 12:03 AM
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fourbyfourclub
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Vehicle(s): 300G
Posts: 302
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Hey Sean! Do not be upset, we are all humans and we are all make mistakes.
Two different type of bearings: Bearings designed for general machinery and bearings designed for Mercedes G-Class W463
32011X will NOT work on a W463 period.
On a W460 you can use any type of bearing FAG, SKF, Timken, NTS, but not in a W463
Hub design on a W463 not allows you to press not an original bearing all way in. You must have NO gap between bearing and hub.
Funny, but just two weeks ago I spoke with my friend from ORC and he told me the story how they returned about 20 Timken bearing kits back to manufacturer for the same reason.
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
fourbyfourclub - 10/3/2006 12:36 AM
Hey Sean! Do not be upset, we are all humans and we are all make mistakes.
Two different type of bearings: Bearings designed for general machinery and bearings designed for Mercedes G-Class W463
32011X will NOT work on a W463 period.
On a W460 you can use any type of bearing FAG, SKF, Timken, NTS, but not in a W463
Hub design on a W463 not allows you to press not an original bearing all way in. You must have NO gap between bearing and hub.
Funny, but just two weeks ago I spoke with my friend from ORC and he told me the story how they returned about 20 Timken bearing kits back to manufacturer for the same reason.
This thread is one more example of the value of this forum. This is a job that I'll be doing in the future, too. Forewarned is most definitely forearmed. Thanks guys! |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
I use the following procedure for pulling these bearings.
Apply pressure to the knife edge puller by tightening, then spray nitrogen cooler to the inside of the hub directly opposite the bearing, then tighten the puller some more, and pop, off it comes. |
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fourbyfourclub
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Vehicle(s): 300G
Posts: 302
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
ewalberg - 10/2/2006 9:37 PM
The gap is not equal, no calipers required to figure that out. Although i'll get a measurement tonight if that helps. I checked to see if you sent a fax for instructions but didn't receive it. E-mail also works fine. I did not receive instructions set, but i have seen it done and noticed that everybody does it a little differently and i've yet to see any instructions which really answer all quesions, so i would definitely like to see your instructions too... i'll PM you my e-mail.
Erik!
About two month ago then you tried to get "part not exist"- housing for your fog light I left you our email and phone number.
If YOU need some installation instructions or advise you can always send me email or just call.
I am the same busy person like we all are but I'm always glad to help anyone with G-problem, regardless where you get your parts.
So, one more time : Mercedes@fourbyfourclub.com
Tel: 201 258 4778
Vlad,
fourbyfourclub, Inc.
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Hey Vlad,
you can NOT use any kind of bearing on a 460 - the outside bearing has to have a larger than normal shoulder on the inner race - exactly like on the 463 hubs. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: wheel bearing job... some questions for the experienced
Bravo Sean!
Imagine this planet when more people would correct their mistakes and then apologize for making them.
I always admired roughneck's signature: "Kindness is not a weakness. Meanness is not a strength." - Sean just validated that beautifully. |
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